Switch from DE to Cartridge ... talk me off ... or push me over the ledge

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DebbieO said:
Hi Dirk! And welcome to the best pool site EVER! Referring to the Purifiber instructions it says to add up to 4 oz. (2 cups) per 25 sq. ft. of cart filtering area. Only add to CLEAN carts. I measure mine out into a bucket of water, mix it up and pour it into the skimmer. I have never had a problem with my filter pressure while using it and I have been using it for 7 years.
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Hi DebbieO! And thanks.

I don't currently have any pressure problems, so I'm not looking to fix anything specific. So what does Purifiber do, exactly, and how would it benefit my system? Since the destruction of my previous plaster (a long story in another thread here), I am faithfully TFPing and only adding the bare minimum of types of chemicals to maintain my pool water. I'll never again just dump something in my water without know more about it and its long-term effects. So far the only things I've put in my water are liquid chlorine, muriatic acid and CYA (oh, and the couple quarts of what I think was a sequestering agent dumped in by my pool guy before I knew what he was doing or what the chem did. It was recommended and left to me by the plasterer, so I probably would have put it in anyway to protect my warranty). But that's it. So no Purifiber for me unless it has a green light from the TFP consensus.
 
I just found a TFP thread that answers what Purifiber is ("Adding filter aide to cartridge filter?"). I get it. But I'm not sure I need it. My water is very clear, but it does bring back up the question I once posted elsewhere. How clear is clear? How does one know for sure their water is as clean as it can be? And now, with this Purifiber stuff, we're talking microscopic! I can clearly see the pebbles in my new surface at the deepest point in my pool. On a still night, with the light on, it looks like my pool is empty. I'm not sure adding anything else to my water or filter is necessary...
 
tstex said:
All,

Re the contortion act needed to drain the cartridge housing, what about this idea?

I'm sure there is a male-threaded sch 40 PVC piece that could fit the inside of the drain plug threads. From there, add a very short piece [straight], then a shut-off valve. then just stick a 90, 45 or whatever you need to make your turn, then simply push in remaining sch 40. It does not need to be glued since anything past the shut-off valve is not under pressure. if you ever needed to remove the male threaded plug, your short connecting piece and plug are all linear straight, so removing the plug, the three short piece could spin together after hand removing the angled piece and drain line. I wouldn't think that a hole of 2" to the shut off valve would have anything bearing on the cartridges performance.
Think how much easier it would be to just turn a valve 90 degrees and drain ?
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I love the idea of a valve for the filter drain. I think I'm going to steal that. But I'd do it differently. Those PVC valves from big box stores are junk. They don't last all that long and are known to fail. My equipment installer refused to use them where I wanted some installed (to drain my solar system for winter). Instead he used a reducer and a brass hose bib, which should outlast any PVC valve. This would satisfy the good "removability" idea pointed out by tstex. It would be more easily replaceable than a PVC valve should it fail (they can be junk, too). It would be much shorter than a PVC solution, maybe negating the need to raise the filter. It would also be somewhat stronger if that area is prone to getting kicked by an errant foot (the main reason my guy wouldn't use the PVC valves). And for me, the added bonus, is that I could attach a hose to it and direct the filter drainage to some other portion of my yard, rather than right in front of my pad. (My river rock there tends to get clogged up with fine mud, which I suspect was coming from the filter when the pool guy would just dump the filter water out right there.)

Kinda like this (it's all I could scrounge up on Google):

Feb-2015-025-e1423085531776.jpg
 
Hey Dirk! I use it because it "polishes" up my water. Also, I have a treeline/woods/swamp/wetlands about 15 ft. west of the pool. I get all kinds of pollen, dirt and general yuks from that. Just north of me in the next yard over is 8 big 'ol cottonwoods. What fun spring is for me! But it's still better than the 8 inches of snow we got since yesterday. Gotta go snowblow now!
 
Dirk said:
This is what I'm going to try. Ball valve. Quarter turn. Near-90° bend. EZPZ!

Home Depot
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I would go measure the area you have to install this. The drain outlet is I believe 2". So you will need to be able to plumb in a 90 to get your valve in. Not sure there is room.
 
mknauss said:
I would go measure the area you have to install this. The drain outlet is I believe 2". So you will need to be able to plumb in a 90 to get your valve in. Not sure there is room.
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Ah, good point! Ran out to check. I have the 320. I have 3.5" from the very bottom of the tan housing to the concrete. Into that housing is the big, black plug. If all that black comes out, I would have enough room, given I could find the right reducer, it screws far enough in and I find a short enough hose bib (which I think I can). So it'll fit once assembled, but the catch might be the assembly (whether there's enough room to thread things in). I could always disconnect the filter and lift it up enough to get the parts in, but that becomes a much bigger project...

My filter:

IMG_3459.jpg

The solar drain in my system, showing the reducer setup I was talking about.

IMG_3460.jpg

And a Home Depot bib elsewhere in my yard. They're pretty short.

IMG_3461.jpg

It'll be tight, but possible...
 
The entire black plug comes out. I am not sure what thread it uses, it has an Oring for a seal. I just took mine out yesterday during my annual filter clean.
 
Adding cellulose fiber to a filter should be unnecessary in most circumstances. Cartridge filters should not need any enhancements as their filter medium is fine enough. Pentair used to say it was ok to add filter aids to their cartridge systems but has since removed that language from their user manuals as it can cause problems when not added properly. Folks with sand filters use the DE/cellulose fiber trick a lot but it is really not necessary for cartridge filters.

One thing you can easily do to improve filtration is to use spun polypropylene hair nets (the kind you see restaurant kitchen workers wearing) in your skimmer basket. They cost about $6 for a box of 100 on Amazon and you simply change them out once a week or so. They are fine enough to capture most visible debris including pollen. When I started using them, my DE filter was a lot cleaner (no bugs, hair or tiny leaves on it).
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Adding cellulose fiber to a filter should be unnecessary in most circumstances. Cartridge filters should not need any enhancements as their filter medium is fine enough. Pentair used to say it was ok to add filter aids to their cartridge systems but has since removed that language from their user manuals as it can cause problems when not added properly. Folks with sand filters use the DE/cellulose fiber trick a lot but it is really not necessary for cartridge filters.
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Excellent info. Thank you.

JoyfulNoise said:
One thing you can easily do to improve filtration is to use spun polypropylene hair nets (the kind you see restaurant kitchen workers wearing) in your skimmer basket. They cost about $6 for a box of 100 on Amazon and you simply change them out once a week or so. They are fine enough to capture most visible debris including pollen. When I started using them, my DE filter was a lot cleaner (no bugs, hair or tiny leaves on it).
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Nice. Low tech, non-chem. Love it! Would this impact flow enough to matter?

Better yet, could I somehow do this in the pump basket instead? That would capture particulate from my suction-side vac, too.
 

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Dirk said:
Nice. Low tech, non-chem. Love it! Would this impact flow enough to matter?

Better yet, could I somehow do this in the pump basket instead? That would capture particulate from my suction-side vac, too.
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It’s never affected the flow of my skimmer even when loaded with debris and dead critters (scorpions, tarantulas, mice, frogs, etc).

Do not put it in the pump strainer basket. Too much danger of it getting sucked into the impeller and causing pump damage.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Do not put it in the pump strainer basket. Too much danger of it getting sucked into the impeller and causing pump damage.
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Roger that. Thanks.

Do you think there's anything to the notion that running suction-side vac dirt and debris through the impeller into the filter impacts the life of the impeller? Or the filter (DE or cartridge)? I was discussing this in another thread in terms of suction-side vac vs Polaris/robots (that don't send crud into the filter).


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mknauss said:
The entire black plug comes out. I am not sure what thread it uses, it has an Oring for a seal. I just took mine out yesterday during my annual filter clean.
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Hmm, O-ring, right. I wonder if a reducer with teflon tape is going to be seal enough for something that was relying on an O-ring...


PS. Sorry, have I completely hijacked this thread, or is this still related enough to the OP?
 
Jason likes being hijacked, it makes him feel wanted ;)

No, I don’t think the impeller’s life is affected by normal pool water debris. All water has mechanical debris on it and that’s exactly what a filter is there for. So I don’t think it matters much if you vacuum it up using your filter pump or a robot. Certainly adding debris load to the filter will increase the filter pressure but that’s what it is there for. I use an oversized DE filter and I get very little pressure change over an entire year.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Jason likes being hijacked, it makes him feel wanted ;)

No, I don’t think the impeller’s life is affected by normal pool water debris. All water has mechanical debris on it and that’s exactly what a filter is there for. So I don’t think it matters much if you vacuum it up using your filter pump or a robot. Certainly adding debris load to the filter will increase the filter pressure but that’s what it is there for. I use an oversized DE filter and I get very little pressure change over an entire year.
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Good to know. And I figure any increase in filter cleaning frequency is offset by not having to clean out a robot or Polaris every week...

From other posts, I gather I'm lucky in how clean my pool stays. I have a lot of trees, but they are mostly evergreen so I don't get a lot of leaves. A few bugs, but if they get through the skimmer basket then I wish them a good afterlife. I've taken over filter cleaning (from the now-fired pool guy), but I haven't had to do it yet to my new cartridges. They've been in for several months but the pressure needle hasn't budged (and I have a flow meter I monitor, too). My filter is not oversized, I would say. Probably about right for my pool size. But I don't have big swimmer load. I'm hoping for once a season. The pool guy was doing it several times a year, but at $100 a pop, I'm guessing he was "extra motivated" to keep my cartridges clean.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
It’s never affected the flow of my skimmer even when loaded with debris and dead critters (scorpions, tarantulas, mice, frogs, etc).

Do not put it in the pump strainer basket. Too much danger of it getting sucked into the impeller and causing pump damage.
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These?

https://www.amazon.com/Disposable-Hair-Spun-Bonded-Polypropylene-White/dp/B072XXLC13

These would actually solve another issue I have, too, as there is no place near my skimmer to dump the basket. I could just pull out the net and throw it away. It'd save me a few minutes (every one of which I count when it comes to pool maintenance)!
 
Going back to the original topic, hoping the dude with 37,000 posts didn't mind the intermission (or I guess as a mod he could have crushed it, lol)...

DE pretty much went the way of the dinosaur down here. I suspect the health risks, be they real or not, had a part to play. But the big one was a massive dust storm that blanketed Sydney and had just the right particle size and soil characteristics to turn a good number of DE filters to concrete. Third being the reason stated, just the hassle of mucking around with DE, no matter how seldom it is.

I'm for the cartridge option, guessing that TFPC is keeping your water pretty clean. But if you get that thick water, emerald city glow, punctuated with frogs and duckweed every now and then, my thoughts would be different, lol.
 
Yep, there are many municipalities in the US that make it impossible to own a DE filter either by requiring a separation tank and/or limiting any kind of discharge from the pool equipment into streets or sewers. In those locations, the only option is a cartridge filter. I don't actually live within the city limits of Tucson, I'm just outside the city limits, and so everything pool related comes under county codes and not Tucson city codes. Building a pool in Tucson can be a major pain while being under county ordinances makes it a lot simpler/easier. If I actually lived within the city limits, I probably would not build a pool if given the choice.

As for Jason's predicament, I don't think there's a cut & dry answer. It really depends on how much effort he wants to put into it....
 
hoping the dude with 37,000 posts didn't mind the intermission
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Ha, intermission, that was very kind. Thank you. Hey, my hijack had elements of the original topic. Like a second cousin, once removed! ;)
 

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