SWG and CYA/TA/PH Help

[yabby32]

Hi all,
I’m new to SWG world and could use some help. Here are my numbers taken from Taylor Kit:
FC: 4
Cc: 4.5
PH: 8
Alk: 110
CYA: 77
CH: 200

When I go to Leslie’s they are reading my TA as 62…So I read the post on TFP about SWG, CYA, and TA/PH relationship. The post says the following:

“In practice the concentration of the cyanurate ion is pH dependant where at a pH of 7.0 it is 22% of the CYA. The percentage increases with pH where at a pH of 8.0 it is 36% of the CYA value.”

Questions:
1) I don’t understand what this statement means. Can someone explain?
2) Should I be dividing my TA when CYA is higher? The article states the Pool Math app adjusts for CYA but it’s telling me my ALK is too high.
3) How do I lower Ph and raise ALK? Do I need to?
4) can someone explain how borates would help in this situation?

TIA

 

[Texas Splash]

Since you are new to salt, let's just keep it very simple for now.
- Simply take your water test results and enter them into the PoolMath APP. There is no need to do additional calculations. The APP automatically adjusts all related chemicals (CYA, TA, etc.)
- With our K-2006 or TF-Series kits, there is no CYA of 77 (increments of 10), simply round up as needed Consider your CYA as 80.
- You listed cc as 4.5 above, but I suspect cc is actually 0.5 and the 4.5 is "Total" chlorine.
- Some people use borates to help try to keep the pH more stable. Below is an article to help explain it more. But before you jump into borates, be sure you are comfortable with the standard chemical parameters first.
- Since your pH is 8.0, be sure to use a little muriatic acid to lower it to 7.8 or below to prevent scale.

Hope that helps.

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[wireform]

Make sure to check off the CSI tab while setting up the app so that will be your guiding point of all the levels combined.

 

[PoolStored]

3) How do I lower Ph and raise ALK? Do I need to?

You do not need to...you should target 60-80 for TA...and keep pH in the 7s. Do not try to manage TA! Just manage your pH...when it rises to 8, reduce it to 7.6. This will reduce TA over time without doing anything else. When your TA gets to 60-80, your pH should be fairly stable at 7.6 or 7.8...maybe it will rise to 8, but should be enough days rise to be manageable.

4) can someone explain how borates would help in this situation?

Give yourself a year of pool management before you contemplate Borates. I have used them for 2 years, and will suspend the use next year. They are unnecessary, and if you do as I say and your TA comes down, you really don't need them.

 

[Mdragger88]

Hi all,
I’m new to SWG world and could use some help. Here are my numbers taken from Taylor Kit:
FC: 4

This is low - skirting minimum for your cya is a recipe for algae.
add some liquid chlorine now to get fc to mid target range & set your swg to maintain that FC/CYA Levels

Cc: 4.5

Hopefully this is a typo

PH: 8

Use muriatic acid to lower this to the mid 7’s

Alk: 110

This is fine

CYA: 77
CH: 200

Your cya counts as 80 for chlorination purposes (always round up if between)

When I go to Leslie’s they are reading my TA as 62…

1st step- Stop getting your water tested at the pool store- trust your kit.
This is called “adjusted TA” ignore it, they want to sell you expensive baking soda.
Just use your tested TA & enter that into
PoolMath when you need to calculate acid additions.

So I read the post on TFP about SWG, CYA, and TA/PH relationship. The post says the following:

“In practice the concentration of the cyanurate ion is pH dependant where at a pH of 7.0 it is 22% of the CYA. The percentage increases with pH where at a pH of 8.0 it is 36% of the CYA value.”

Questions:
1) I don’t understand what this statement means. Can someone explain?

It’s explaining the chemistry but that’s irrelevant if you use poolmath for calculations.

2) Should I be dividing my TA when CYA is higher? The article states the Pool Math app adjusts for CYA but it’s telling me my ALK is too high.

Your ta is a little high (outside of ideal range) but high ta doesn’t hurt anything- it just means ph rises a bit more quickly than with a lower ta
Any measured ta 50 or above is fine.

3) How do I lower Ph and raise ALK?

You cannot - ph & ta are married chemically
- acid lowers them both
- baking soda, soda ash, & borax increase them both in some way
- the only way to increase ph without increasing ta is through aeration

Do I need to?

No - lower ph to mid 7’s with acid this will also lower ta
As you continually manage ph the ta will fall
As the ta falls the ph rise frequency will be reduced.

4) can someone explain how borates would help in this situation?

TIA

You don’t really have a situation- borates can be a slight help with several things as listed in the article @Texas Splash posted but they are the very last thing to fiddle with when it comes to pool care.
*Chlorine is king always follow the
FC/CYA Levels
*Keep ph in the 7’s
Then all the rest

 

[wireform]

TFP CLEAR and most or all of them followed the guidelines you getting.

 

[yabby32]

Thank you all for your help! I’ll add some chlorine to get up to 6 ppm. Yes, CC was about .5… and not 4.5. One other question about SWG is can I set this higher instead of adding liquid chlorine? I currently have an IC 40 so it’s double my pool size and I have it on the 2/5 setting. Is this asking too much of SWG to raise it alone or not? Should I raise and just expect SWG to hold it there? TIA!

 

[Mdragger88]

Here’s what your swg can produce each hour it runs at 100%


What is your run time & percentage now?

The average daily fc loss in a residential pool is 2-5 ppm
You should dose with liquid chlorine now then set the swg to produce 3-4 ppm daily, then test & readjust.
Swcg’s are great maintainers but Don’t depend on it to make up a deficit- it’s a bit too slow. Dose 1st & know you’re covered.

 

[proavia]

I’ll add some chlorine to get up to 6 ppm

Add chlorine to get up to 8-9 ppm.
Give yourself a large enough buffer as you're dialing in your SWG.
You never want to even flirt with the minimum of 4 ppm for your CYA of 80.

Running FC near the top of the target range (or even a few ppm higher) is much better than flirting with the minimum.
Remember, pH test is not accurate with FC > 10 ppm.

A SWG is great for mantaining chlorine.
ASWG is not good to increase the FC level much.
Use liquid chlorine to get your FC up to 8-9 ppm now.

 

[Turniptruck]

When I go to Leslie’s they are reading my TA as 62…

Don't go to Leslie's. Period. We have two of them in driving range plus two other pool stores that do "Testing." The same water taken to different locations will yield different results. I learned that early on and quickly.

I use the Taylor K-2005-Salt test kit with R-0870 and R-0871 that I had to purchase separately. I started with the TFP Pool Math app a few weeks ago. It's great.

 

[yabby32]

Don't go to Leslie's. Period. We have two of them in driving range plus two other pool stores that do "Testing." The same water taken to different locations will yield different results. I learned that early on and quickly.

I use the Taylor K-2005-Salt test kit with R-0870 and R-0871 that I had to purchase separately. I started with the TFP Pool Math app a few weeks ago. It's great.

I’m not great at determining the CYA so I generally go just for that. Any recommendations on reading CYA correctly?

 

[yabby32]

Here’s what your swg can produce each hour it runs at 100%
View attachment 525602

What is your run time & percentage now?

The average daily fc loss in a residential pool is 2-5 ppm
You should dose with liquid chlorine now then set the swg to produce 3-4 ppm daily, then test & readjust.
Swcg’s are great maintainers but Don’t depend on it to make up a deficit- it’s a bit too slow. Dose 1st & know you’re covered.

How do I determine the pump time and speeds plus settings on SWG IC40 to create the 3 to 4 ppm chlorine production?

 

[pjt]

How do I determine the pump time and speeds plus settings on SWG IC40 to create the 3 to 4 ppm chlorine production?

PoolMath will give you an estimate for FC production: "Effects of Adding" --> "Chemical Additions" --> "SWG"

 

[proavia]

How do I determine the pump time and speeds plus settings on SWG IC40 to create the 3 to 4 ppm chlorine production?

See post #8

 

[yabby32]

PoolMath will give you an estimate for FC production: "Effects of Adding" --> "Chemical Additions" --> "SWG"

I see that but it doesn’t have options for variable speed pump. I currently run SWG at 20% (one solid green light) and the pump runs at 2400 RPM for 18 hours, 2800 for 3.5 hours, and 3250 rpm for 1.5 hours. Currently, it seems that I’m having the opposite issue and my chloride is rising each day by an additional 1ppm and climbing close to 10ppm. I turned off SWG for a day and went down to 8ppm. I then had a pool party and chlorine went down to 5.5ppm. I threw in non chlorine shock and the next day I’m back up to 8.5ppm. I’m thinking this is due to rpm of pump and since pool math can’t account your this, I’m struggling to figure out run times and SWG percentage.

 

[PoolStored]

As long as the pump is running and the flow switch is energized, the pump speed does not impact the amount of production. It is all pump run TIME and SWCG output %.

In the fall, FC demand drops off. You just need to reduce your SWCG output.

 

[kellyfair]

I’m not great at determining the CYA so I generally go just for that. Any recommendations on reading CYA correctly?

Yep.

Do test at midday or near abouts with sun behind you. Pour solution to one line then GLANCE into the tube. You can start by pouring to a line that is well over what you expect.

When you see the dot at a GLANCE, pour to the next line. Glance in. Still see dot easily? Pour to next line.

When the dot is not visible at a lightning quick glance, that is your CYA. There may be a slight whisper of the dot, but you can call it there. If you stare into the tube, your mind will fill in that dot. Hence my all-caps GLANCE.

From this point on, when you do test CYA, do it under the same conditions. If you vary the time of day, or do when it is cloudy, you are going to have different results.

Now that CYA is handled, join the #RunHotTeam and target just above the range (NOT the minimum) for your CYA. That way, even your daily use will keep you well above minimum, which means you won’t risk algae.

 

[PoolStored]

I’m not great at determining the CYA so I generally go just for that. Any recommendations on reading CYA correctly?

Get a 50ppm standard solution:

R-7065 CYA Standard 50ppm (2oz)

tftestkits.net

Mix it 50/50 with the CYA reagent. Shake as normal. Squeeze out it into the reading tube so the meniscus is at the "50 line" Stand outside, sun at your back and glance at the tube. This will show you what the CYA test should look like when it is "done."

Go back to normal testing, follow the same procedure with your pool water instead of the standard. Add the pool water/reagent mix to the reading tube. Fill to each line. When it looks like what you saw with the standard solution at 50, that is your CYA level.

 

[Turniptruck]

I’m not great at determining the CYA so I generally go just for that. Any recommendations on reading CYA correctly?

I use the test in the Taylor kits. You sample some water, add a reagent, then fill a tube until you can't see a dot on the bottom of the tube anymore. It seems to work well for me. The readings that I get match those from several different strips. If all are in agreement, I believe the result.

The CYA test is in the Taylor K2005 and K2006 kits. You don't get many tests from the amount of included R-0013 reagent. I bought a separate 2oz bottle.

 

[yabby32]

I use the test in the Taylor kits. You sample some water, add a reagent, then fill a tube until you can't see a dot on the bottom of the tube anymore. It seems to work well for me. The readings that I get match those from several different strips. If all are in agreement, I believe the result.

The CYA test is in the Taylor K2005 and K2006 kits. You don't get many tests from the amount of included R-0013 reagent. I bought a separate 2oz bottle.

What strips do you use to determine it? I’ve had CYA at 60 but I stop seeing dot at 30 to 40 so a test strip to confirm would be great!