Suggestions for Layout of New SWCG

[DanF]

Just wanted to update this thread with a final installation pic and thank everyone that provided advice on this thread and this one regarding wiring. I decided to simply wire the SWG to the unused Intermatic mechanical timer and deal with keeping the Intermatic timer and my 2-speed pump timer in sync. I'll continue to look for a better way but for now I'm at least up and running and the Circupool is producing sufficient FC. Now I'll focus on keeping CSI in check (slightly negative) to minimize cell scaling and cleaning.

Quick question regarding SWG runtimes vs % generation during the runtime. My FC is at 10.0-10.5 right which is a little higher than recommended. I am running the SWG for 3 hours/day at 50%. Should I reduce the runtime and keep it at 50%, or keep the runtime and reduce the % to say 25% or so?

Thanks again!
Dan

 

[cowboycasey]

Nicely done

Both will work the same... running less time will use less power but not skim/filter as much... running the same time and lowering SWG will filter the same, use same power but run SWG less The best way to lower is turn the SWG off until you reach 7FC and turn it back on, maybe a day or 2... I run my higher than recommended between 7 and 10 FC Remember with the RJ you can set it at 15% or 20% to fine tune it...

 

[DanF]

Thanks Casey. My SWG isn't connected to my pump timer, so reducing my SWG runtime has no impact on filtering. I can run the SWG however long I want, as long as the pump is also running. For example my pump is running 8 hrs/day, but my SWG only 3 hours/day. I'll try turning the SWG off also to lower the FC.

 

[Dirk]

Is that one of those dual Intermatic timers? I used to have one like that, to run a filter pump and booster pump. The booster pump required the filter pump to be running, much like your SWG needs your main pump to run. You can wire the timers together such that the SWG can only get power when your filter pump does, so even if the timers get out of sync, the SWG won't turn on unless the pump is running. You'll still be able to schedule that SWG for less hours than the filter pump.

It's likely that the owner manual for your timers has the wiring diagram you need to set that up.

Pardon if that was already covered in your wiring thread...

 

[DanF]

Dirk, my 2-speed filter pump has an "on-board" timer that controls when it comes on and at what speed. My intermatic timer used to control my 1-speed pump before I upgraded to the 2-speed about 4 years ago. Since then the Intermatic timer has remained dormant until I hooked my SWG to it. Hope that clarifies.

 

[Dirk]

Roger that. Couldn't see that in the pic. Hopefully you got some good ideas in your other thread about how to keep your SWG operating safely.

Nice job on the SWG installation. I see everything got a nice fresh coat of paint, too!

 

[DanF]

Hopefully you got some good ideas in your other thread about how to keep your SWG operating safely.

I did, thanks . The SWG has a flow switch that will kill power to the SWG in the absence of the pump being on. It's a backup (secondary) control, but should be sufficient if the 2 timers ever got out of sync. I even tested the flow switch by turning off the pump and it stopped the cell from generating chlorine.

 

[Dirk]

General TFP advice is not to trust the flow switch as you are doing, as technically that is now the primary safety, not the back up. What would make me nervous is my experience with those Intermatic timers. Mine were very often getting out of sync because the little screw-down lugs were always coming loose. Also, if you had both pump and SWG scheduled by the Intermatic timers, then a power failure would alter both schedules equally, and not leave them out of sync. But if your pump's built-in timer has any sort of battery backup, then a power failure could put the SWG schedule out of sync with the pump's, because the pump's will recover to the correct time where the SWG's won't. Basic Murphy's Law stuff, you know how that works.

Up to you, of course, but if you wanted a little more insurance, you could install a third-party flow switch and wire that in series with the SWG circuit. Two flow switches and the timer sync would have to fail before you'd have a problem... Full disclaimer: I tend to be more cautious about such things than most...

 

[DanF]

Hey Dirk - thanks for your response.

General TFP advice is not to trust the flow switch as you are doing, as technically that is now the primary safety, not the back up.

I guess that's correct, but the way I see it is both the timer needs to fail (due to a power outage) and the flow switch needs to fail to have a problem. Still not perfect but the best I can do for now.

What would make me nervous is my experience with those Intermatic timers. Mine were very often getting out of sync because the little screw-down lugs were always coming loose.

Totally get it. Either the lugs come loose, the power fails, or the timer is set incorrectly because it's hard to get the lugs in the right place.

Also, if you had both pump and SWG scheduled by the Intermatic timers, then a power failure would alter both schedules equally, and not leave them out of sync. But if your pump's built-in timer has any sort of battery backup, then a power failure could put the SWG schedule out of sync with the pump's, because the pump's will recover to the correct time where the SWG's won't. Basic Murphy's Law stuff, you know how that works.

Roger that! But...if both my pump and my timer had battery backup I would be OK also (see below).

Up to you, of course, but if you wanted a little more insurance, you could install a third-party flow switch and wire that in series with the SWG circuit. Two flow switches and the timer sync would have to fail before you'd have a problem... Full disclaimer: I tend to be more cautious about such things than most...

I wouldn't know how to wire that, and not sure I have enough straight pipe for a second flow switch. What about something like this:
Intermatic Digital Timer
I wouldn't need the enclosure if it could get just the timer, if the timer would fit in my existing enclosure shown below.

 

[Dirk]

You have plenty of room for a flow switch. It wouldn't need to be close to the SWG, it could be anywhere in the plumbing circuit. Admittedly the wiring would require some ingenuity, as most I looked at probably wouldn't handle the SWG's current, so there would have to be a relay involved.

I love the digital timer idea, w/battery backup. That eliminates two of the shortcomings of the mechanical version.

This need is common, it's a shame more forethought isn't applied to pump technology. When the pump requires constant power, and is scheduled internally, how is one supposed to reliably safeguard dependent pool components? All that would be needed is some sort of tap available externally on the pump, even just a 5v terminal or jack, that could power a relay that could then power any number of things dependent on pump flow: SWGs, heaters, acid injection systems, etc. Shame.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I'm sorry I missed this thread before.

Your setup was much easier to do than mine. I also went vertical but I had to rig up my own kit as Circupool's was too big for the horizontal opening I had. I JUST squeezed mine in, but that's good enough for government work, that is for sure.

But you ended up doing what I would have suggested anyway. (Well that or going horizontal for the SWCG, but I would have recommended some support for it if you did that.) I use a 110V circuit for my SWCG with a $15 "Decora" switch plate digital plug (fits nicely in the Intermatic panel) with the same sort of battery backup. My universal 40 does have a flow switch too. I suspect I'll only get 3-4 years out of the timer battery backup but that's about the same time the cell will need to be replaced.

It works brilliantly. I run the pump a lot longer than the cell now that the water is 64F and the days are short. It's really nice to set it digitally, honestly. I would avoid a Wi-Fi switch or something like it for this however as you don't want it to ever miss a on/off cycle. A timer is pretty reliable.

As for "why don't the pumps have relays in them to control other things?". Hey cheapie! Buy the $2000 automation system, that's why! You can buy, for about $100, a current sensing relay if you want to turn on and off the SWCG, but being able to have a shorter run time for the SWCG is highly desirable, especially with the newer units with only 10 cycle settings. That's something that new units are not better than the older ones. I like my 1% settings... it's been much easier to tweak that than the run time as the days get shorter. But using a digital timer will do the same thing at the same accuracy... just use Pool Math to figure it out.

 

[DanF]

I use a 110V circuit for my SWCG with a $15 "Decora" switch plate digital plug (fits nicely in the Intermatic panel) with the same sort of battery backup. My universal 40 does have a flow switch too. I suspect I'll only get 3-4 years out of the timer battery backup but that's about the same time the cell will need to be replaced.

It works brilliantly. I run the pump a lot longer than the cell now that the water is 64F and the days are short. It's really nice to set it digitally, honestly. I would avoid a Wi-Fi switch or something like it for this however as you don't want it to ever miss a on/off cycle. A timer is pretty reliable.

Thanks for the idea Fred. I suppose I would need to re-wire my SWG controller to convert it from 240V to 120V, and possibly put a 3 prong plug at the end of the wire?
Do you have a picture of yours you can post?

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I'll get some tomorrow morning. I am currently at work and it'll be dark by the time I get home. But yes, that is what I did. (There might be some pictures of it in my build thread... I'll look and edit if so).

If you open up any Circupool unit, there is a transformer at the end of the line cord. There should be a sticker there showing you how to change the taps from 220V to 110V. Since the units draw a maximum of 200W there is no issue with loss of efficiency or what gauge wire is run, or running with the light circuit, or whatever. Your Intermatic box should have a neutral in it for the lights, that is how you can easily get a 110V circuit, or you can use the light circuit as is. I did add an additional breaker for mine so I can also turn it off that way, but that's optional... you can run it off the existing light circuit too.

I ran a three prong plug to a waterproof 110V outdoor box. I'd recommend a GFCI in that box after the timer. Really you need it for code on any outside box.

When it gets too cold to generate I am going to take it all in.. including the control box. I'll just unplug it. That way I can clean the critters out over the winter from the box. It's a nice setup, actually.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

For the Electrical work, have a look at this portion of the thread... Continuation of an odyssey

The plumbing wasn't done at that point, but that is what I did for the electrical hookup on the SWCG.. The fence section I built has the control unit on it... I also know I posted the transformer tap picture.. I'll look....

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

... and then this... you'll see how little room I had for my install but it works fine.. the transformer tap picture for the Universal 40 is there, but Hayward (same unit for the most part) and the other Circupool units for sure should be very similar.

But this shows the plumbing the mounting of my control unit.

Vertical Installs

Is there any issues with installing the cells vertically than horizontally when using a VSP? would I have to increase speed/pressure much more than in a horizontal install at low speeds? I can do it horizontally but it's going to be more Rube Goldberg than I thought! Vertical would be much...

www.troublefreepool.com

If it's still not clear I can take more pictures manana. Let me know...

 

[DanF]

Thanks again Fred. So I saw the timer - does that control an outlet into which your controller is plugged in?

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I took a couple of pictures when I did a quick check on the pool.. Yes I ran the code maximum 6' length of the plastic flex conduit and #12 to the outlet from the Intermatic box. That makes it an oversized 20A circuit (with 15A breaker and GFCI because it is overkill as it is.) but I had all of the stuff. GFCI is after the timer on the cedar fence section in my sun shed I built.

Hopefully the pictures will clarify. In my case the pump timer runs a little fast and the switch plate timer runs a little slow but as long as I put a half hour in between them, they are good for six months plus.

The mechanical timer never has and never will be hooked up. The unlabeled 110v breaker is the SWCG, I moved the switch for the light to the extra plastic waterproof box so the Kasa WiFi switch is not in a literal Faraday shield. For
the pool light.

 

[DanF]

Thanks Fred! This gives me some ideas but still not sure if I will go with keeping the controller at 240V and using an intermatic digital timer (like in post #49), or convert the controller to 120V and use a setup like yours. In any event I think I will need an electrician :-(

BTW I was in your neck of the woods (sorta) yesterday - took my wife and mom up Mt Lemmon to Summerhaven for lunch. Nice day.

 

[setsailsoon]

Nice install. You've got a LOT of capacity so this should last a long time! I have the RJ 30+ and run it very close to Pool Math predictions. There are different views on best set up either run all the time at lowest possible % power to get the best disinfection or minimum run time to get best cost performance. I think there are good arguments for both so just pick what works best for you. One thing that I'd recommend you avoid is micro managing the FC level. Set the controls so your FC wanders between target and a few ppm above. You should be able to do this with only one or two adjustments per year. Otherwise the thing will drive you nuts.

Hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Thanks Fred! This gives me some ideas but still not sure if I will go with keeping the controller at 240V and using an intermatic digital timer (like in post #49), or convert the controller to 120V and use a setup like yours. In any event I think I will need an electrician :-(

BTW I was in your neck of the woods (sorta) yesterday - took my wife and mom up Mt Lemmon to Summerhaven for lunch. Nice day.

That's about thirty miles from my house. I am pretty much straight south of Mt. Lemmon and can see it from the pool over the block fence.

It took me about an hour and a half to wire mine up. I personally am glad that I did the digital timer, but the Intermatic timers have run pools for a long time.

I was in Tombstone yesterday myself.