Suction side leak?

[panamafever]

Hi all,

First post here! Read a few posts and articles and people here seem pretty well-informed and I have an issue I need help with.

So I think I have a suction line leak on my 1995 Dimension 1 hot tub. It started a couple months ago. The leak is fairly slow—basically the floor gets wet, with the epicenter seeming to be at or very close to the corner where the filter is. I previously didn't know about suction line leaks and had used Fix-a-Leak several times (from what I've read here, a lot of users on TFP don't love it). I thought I was fixing the leak each time, b/c the floor would dry up after I used it, but in hindsight, I'm thinking the floor was just drying up b/c when I was applying fix-a-leak I was then running the tub for 10 hours—and suction line leaks are more apt to leak when the tub's NOT RUNNING, right? In addition, I noticed that when I put on a dirtier filter, bubbles came out of the jets, indicating to me that there's a small crack that draws MORE air in when a dirty filter limits the amount of water flow (thus adding more suction around the leak).

I'm currently running a test—going to run the tub while drying out the floor for a while, then stop drying the floor, keep it running, and see if it leaks. Then turn it off and see if the leak starts.

Assuming it ends up being a suction line leak, my questions are:

1. The bottle of Fix a Leak says you have to reverse flow if you want to use the product to fix such a leak—from what I've read at TFP, that's a "fairly complex procedure" which would essentially involve jury-rigging it somehow (e.g., removing the existing pump, running a different pump--basically creating my own reverse flow apparatus, right?

2. The preferred fix on TFP is basically to start tearing out insulation and looking for the leak, right?

3. I have a hope: I read somewhere that suction line leaks sometimes come from right where the filter seats—that I basically might be able to just remove and either re-lube or replace an o-ring down there or something, as that might be the culprit. Does that sound possible?

Thanks so much for any help you can provide. We really enjoy the hot tub and I'll be so happy once I get this leak resolved.

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

In the 1990's I had a Sundance hot tub. It was a great hot tub but it eventually developed leaks. All of the internal PVC were glued and not very well. Over time the glue joints dried out and began leaking. It was a constant game of wack-a-mole opening up the sides, finding leaking joints, gluing them tight, until the next leak. Eventually got rid of it.

You probably have a similar problem. Fix-A-Leak is not going to do anything. You have to begin crawling around inside looking at the PVC joints.

 

[panamafever]

Welcome to TFP.

In the 1990's I had a Sundance hot tub. It was a great hot tub but it eventually developed leaks. All of the internal PVC were glued and not very well. Over time the glue joints dried out and began leaking. It was a constant game of wack-a-mole opening up the sides, finding leaking joints, gluing them tight, until the next leak. Eventually got rid of it.

You probably have a similar problem. Fix-A-Leak is not going to do anything. You have to begin crawling around inside looking at the PVC joints.

Thanks for the advice, ajw! To clarify, your advice really entails cutting in and digging out insulation until I hit the pipes, right? Yeah, that's definitely my least preferable option, lol. Hoping for better news but am afraid you might be right about this.

 

[ajw22]

Thanks for the advice, ajw! To clarify, your advice really entails cutting in and digging out insulation until I hit the pipes, right? Yeah, that's definitely my least preferable option, lol. Hoping for better news but am afraid you might be right about this.

Yes. Have to get your hands on the source of the leak.

 

[RDspaguy]

Most spa leaks are in the equipment bay. Before you start digging holes in your insulation, which can cause more leaks than it finds, check around the equipment. It may be a shaft seal, or union o-ring, or ozonator check valve. A suction leak is not the only thing that only leaks if the pump is off, so try your test but check the equipment area before you go digging.

If you do need to dig, I can give you some pointers. But not until you verify that it is not in the equipment bay.

Does your spa have the solenoid controlled seat? If so, the solenoid bank is a common leak issue. That is usually under the corner panel on your left when facing the control panel.

Where water comes out from under your spa is not necessarily an indication of where it is leaking, just where the low spot in your floor is.

 

[panamafever]

Most spa leaks are in the equipment bay. Before you start digging holes in your insulation, which can cause more leaks than it finds, check around the equipment. It may be a shaft seal, or union o-ring, or ozonator check valve. A suction leak is not the only thing that only leaks if the pump is off, so try your test but check the equipment area before you go digging.

If you do need to dig, I can give you some pointers. But not until you verify that it is not in the equipment bay.

Does your spa have the solenoid controlled seat? If so, the solenoid bank is a common leak issue. That is usually under the corner panel on your left when facing the control panel.

Where water comes out from under your spa is not necessarily an indication of where it is leaking, just where the low spot in your floor is.

Thanks, RD. I've spent a lot of time in the panel and can report with certainty that the leak isn't coming from anywhere inside it. I actually keep it open, with various containers to catch drips back before I fixed them, and they've been dry for months now.

New data point: What if my spa ONLY leaks when the water is warm? Does that mean anything?

 

[RDspaguy]

It will usually be the opposite, and stop leaking once warm.

 

[panamafever]

It will usually be the opposite, and stop leaking once warm.

Weird. Ok so I realized that like the last 3 times (all in the last month or so) the sequence is:
- discover the floor is wet
-I fan the floor to get it dry (takes a day or so bc of the AstroTurf) while also running fix a leak, which I do by opening the cover so that it runs continuously for 8-10 hours. This also gets the temp down to like 80.
- turn it off, cover it
- after 2-3 days, floor has stayed dry. I drain and refill the hot tub, take up to max heat as usual.
- after 2-4 days the floor is wet again.

thoughts? Ways to learn additional things by testing? E.g. I could leave it off for a week and see—maybe the leak is just super slow.

 

[RDspaguy]

That is a pressure side leak if it stays dry when off and leaks when on.
If you are sure it is not a pump seal or o-ring or ozonator, which it is 95% of the time, then it's time to start making holes. You are absolutely sure...?
Can you post a pic of your equipment bay and pack?

 

[RDspaguy]

Do you have the air pump circulation system?

 

[panamafever]

Ok, so here is a pic of the compartment which is I think what you’re asking about. All the trays and the “floor” of the compartment are bone dry. Note the right side where there’s some pvc glue—so I actually had to replace a small section of pipe there a few months ago, and that’s also about where the leak MIGHT be coming from. But I can’t find any wetness in that area, just on the floor.
I don’t think I have an air pump circulation system and I don’t have an ozonator.

thanks!

 

[panamafever]

Also, would the advice from the Pool School possibly be relevant to me?

From Suction Side Air Leaks - Page 2 of 2 - Trouble Free Pool :

1. The most common source is the pump basket lid. It must have an airtight seal. Replacing the O-ring often helps. Proper cleaning and lubrication of the O-ring with a silicone based lubricant (Magic Lube is one brand) may be necessary….do not use WD-40 or petroleum jelly.

Often, you can confirm this as the source by slowing pouring water over the lid (pump running) to see if that stops or minimizes the air in the basket.

 

[RDspaguy]

That is for swimming pool pumps not spas. You do not have a basket or lid on a spa pump.
Again, if it leaks when running and stops when not running it is not a suction leak, it is a pressure leak.
When you say floor, you mean the floor in the room not the floor of the equipment bay, correct?
On the edge of the spa there are small valves that mix air in with the water coming out of the jets called air controls. Close all air control valves. See if your leak stops.
Does your spa have diverter valves, handles on the edge that change water flow from these jets to those jets? If so, remove the handles by pulling up and wiggling the valve handle. You may need pliers, cushion the jaws with a rag to avoid scratching, but do not pry under the edge or you will break it. Look for leaks around the cap under the handle.
Check the drain hose attachment. Is the edge of the spa wet beneath it? Does it have a cap or just a valve?
If it is not any of these, start removing side panels.
Look for discoloration and moisture visible without digging, especially around diverter valves and air controls, and the manifolds near them.
If you still do not see anything to guide you, get a few small diameter dowel rods and begin to insert them into the foam horizontally about 6in from the bottom. Be careful, if you encounter resistance it is a pipe or fitting you do not want to stress! You can pull it back and angle slightly to clear obstacle. Leave them sit for a few minutes and remove with your hand marking the edge of the foam. If the dowel rod is wet, which will be obvious, you have found a leak. Note the distance from your hand is the depth into the foam to the water. Now, using dry end of dowel or a new one, check above and around previous location to find exact location of leak. The water tends to soak foam in a cone downward from a leak, unless the foam has pulled away from the pipes at it can flow through the voids. Very possible with a tub as old as yours.
Keep us updated on what you find.

 

[panamafever]

That is for swimming pool pumps not spas. You do not have a basket or lid on a spa pump.
Again, if it leaks when running and stops when not running it is not a suction leak, it is a pressure leak.
When you say floor, you mean the floor in the room not the floor of the equipment bay, correct?
On the edge of the spa there are small valves that mix air in with the water coming out of the jets called air controls. Close all air control valves. See if your leak stops.
Does your spa have diverter valves, handles on the edge that change water flow from these jets to those jets? If so, remove the handles by pulling up and wiggling the valve handle. You may need pliers, cushion the jaws with a rag to avoid scratching, but do not pry under the edge or you will break it. Look for leaks around the cap under the handle.
Check the drain hose attachment. Is the edge of the spa wet beneath it? Does it have a cap or just a valve?
If it is not any of these, start removing side panels.
Look for discoloration and moisture visible without digging, especially around diverter valves and air controls, and the manifolds near them.
If you still do not see anything to guide you, get a few small diameter dowel rods and begin to insert them into the foam horizontally about 6in from the bottom. Be careful, if you encounter resistance it is a pipe or fitting you do not want to stress! You can pull it back and angle slightly to clear obstacle. Leave them sit for a few minutes and remove with your hand marking the edge of the foam. If the dowel rod is wet, which will be obvious, you have found a leak. Note the distance from your hand is the depth into the foam to the water. Now, using dry end of dowel or a new one, check above and around previous location to find exact location of leak. The water tends to soak foam in a cone downward from a leak, unless the foam has pulled away from the pipes at it can flow through the voids. Very possible with a tub as old as yours.
Keep us updated on what you find.

RD, this is all awesome advice, thank you! Love the dowel trick

Here's an update as I'm still fact-finding: I let it sit for about a week to see if it leaked while idle. The floor remained dry. Night before last I turned it back on—my next goal is to see if it (a) leaks while hot but off and/or (b) leaks while on. One possible complicator is if the leak is super slow, I might get a false positive. So I'm really taking my time with each experimental condition. Anyway, it finished heating last night so I shut it off. Going to let it sit for a day or 3 and look for leaks. If it stays dry, I'll plug it in but not use for several days. If it STILL stays dry, then I'll be a bit flummoxed! Main thing is to pin down the exact circumstance of the leak and go from there. Still hoping to avoid digging, but your tricks would definitely make that less of a nightmare, so thank you!

Additional responses:

- OK, so that basket language is for pools, thank you!

- By floor, yes, I mean the floor of the room—the compartment itself remains bone dry (thank God—for the longest time that was the problem area til I finally replaced the gate valve and various gaskets).

- In terms of valves and controls, what I have are the jets themselves, which are underwater of course, and which I can turn by hand to open or close. A few of them have kinda fallen apart (tho not recently) and others won't close or won't open. So overall a bit janky. Good call that if it starts leaking, I can try closing them to see if that changes it.

- The other thing I have is on the edge of the spa, is a big wheel-type thing, is hella stuck, and I've never messed with. But I can tell the previous owner used pliars on it a few times. So I suppose that's the "diverter valve," in which case I don't think I have "air control valves." Sound right? I can def work on loosening/taking it off, tho it's on the clear opposite side of the leak so I suspect it's not the culprit.

- The hose bib is dry and on the opposite-ish side than the leak. The bib has leaked before and I've tinkered to get it to stop, so it should be good! It has two valves (one redundant that I added) and a cap to boot.

Will update once I'm more certain that it doesn't leak while hot and off.

BONUS QUESTION: What's the slowest leak you've seen? Could it take 3-5 days for the floor to all of a sudden be fairly wet? Also keep in mind that while I'm in a dry climate, the flooring in the room is astroturf, so it doesn't dry super fast.

 

[jseyfert3]

- The other thing I have is on the edge of the spa, is a big wheel-type thing, is hella stuck, and I've never messed with. But I can tell the previous owner used pliars on it a few times. So I suppose that's the "diverter valve," in which case I don't think I have "air control valves." Sound right? I can def work on loosening/taking it off, tho it's on the clear opposite side of the leak so I suspect it's not the culprit.

Does it look like one of the ones on mine by chance?

I have two bigger valves, one on each side of the tub. These are diverter valves. My tub has two pumps. One pump runs the lounge seat and the far side seat, plus the foot massager jet on the bottom middle of the tub. You can position the valve to have moderate pumping on all these positions or go full power jets on the two seats but no foot massager jet, or go full force on the foot massager jet but no seat jets. The other diverter valve works the same, only it's splitting water between the 4 remaining seats in pairs of two. So all 4 with moderate jets or two with full jets and two without. The 6 smaller valves are air control valves. They allow air to mix in with the jets in various locations for a more vigorous jet feel, if desired.

If you haven't ever moved the valve, and it is a diverter valve, then you have jets that either aren't working or they aren't as powerful as they could be, cause the water is getting split between multiple jets instead of being concentrated into fewer jets. Either that, or you don't have a diverter valve and it's an air valve. Do you have any jets that don't work? Do you have air coming out of the jets when they run?

 

[RDspaguy]

Foam is a sponge. It can soak up alot of water before it lets some go on the floor. And the spot where you see water on the floor is not an indication of where the leak is. It is just the low spot on the floor. That spa has a plastic sheet on the bottom, wherever the leak started it will flow to the low spot before coming out from under the edge. If it is not in the equipment bay, drain, or topside valves you gotta poke some holes.
Does your spa have the programmable lounger?

 

[wireform]

Could it be possibly condensate leaking out from the cover when it's closed down the side eventually to the floor.

 

[panamafever]

Does it look like one of the ones on mine by chance?
...
Do you have any jets that don't work? Do you have air coming out of the jets when they run?

Yes, it looks like yours—pretty certain it's a diverter valve, thanks for the detailed description! And I don't think I have much air coming out of the jets normally.

Foam is a sponge. It can soak up alot of water before it lets some go on the floor. And the spot where you see water on the floor is not an indication of where the leak is. It is just the low spot on the floor. That spa has a plastic sheet on the bottom, wherever the leak started it will flow to the low spot before coming out from under the edge. If it is not in the equipment bay, drain, or topside valves you gotta poke some holes.
Does your spa have the programmable lounger?

You've said a few times that the spot where the water is doesn't indicate where the leak is—sorry, I'll take that to heart now, it's just much more comforting to assume it IS an indication

I don't think there's a programmable lounger—the only electronic controls it has are high, low, and light—the rest is just physically turning the jet nozzles or the diverter.

Could it be possibly condensate leaking out from the cover when it's closed down the side eventually to the floor.

Great question. That was actually my first thought when this started a month or so ago. I ended up buying a new cover since the old one was who knows how old and heavy as Crud. The old one did do some condensate leaking but not enough to account for the leak, plus the new cover seems not to yet at least once have had the leak since getting the new cover.

*****

OK, floor still dry for now. Will keep you posted.

I'm also starting to wonder if there's a chance the wet floor was actually different water, like seepage into the foundation of the house or something (the hot tub is in an enclosed porch, essentially, so right on the edge of the house)—I don't recall if the wetness inside corresponded with rain or anything though.

 

[panamafever]

Update: As of yesterday mid-afternoon, the water is back. I unplugged it again and my plan is to wait and see if it stays wet and for how long. As my posts have stated, I've been in this cycle a few times, trying to figure out what triggers and what doesn't trigger the leak. Each previous time, when I saw the leak I unplugged the tub and started aggressive air moving to dry it out. This time I want to NOT air it out and just observe what happens to it once I've unplugged the tub.

Given the timing of the leak this time, I'm thinking it means it leaks when it's warm. It's also possible it leaks when the jets are on—they were on for 24 hours or so to heat the tub, BUT I didn't spot the leak until about 3 days after it got to full temperature. So that might mean either that (a) the leak was generated by the constant pumping, but that it took several days for the leak to actually "leak out"—OR, alternatively, (b) that it's the high-temp water that's causing the leak. If it's (a), I think it should dry out on its own now that it's off, but if it's (b), then as long as the water stays warm it would continue to leak. I wish I had an easy way to keep the spa hot right now without running the jets, since even if it IS (a), I could see it being several days to dry out again (since the water took several days to start leaking out), and during those several days the spa will also cool off, thus flummoxing my experiment.

Does anything I'm writing make sense? At least it seems clear it's not a suction side leak given that it sat unleaking for a week, right??

 

[jseyfert3]

Do you see the water in the tub drop at all? If so, could you put a mark at the waterline and watch that in addition to watching for leaks? It may respond faster, but it depends how big your leak is if that will work.