Suction Line for a second (feature) pump

[sam34786]

Hello Guys,

I went through this forum and learned that sharing the suction lines for 2 pumps is a bad idea.

Current Configuration -- Pool and SPA -- Total of 3 Drains -- Pool Main Drain / Pool Skimmer / SPA Drain

I want to have a separate pump for waterfall features (4 Pentair Laminar Jets / Rain Arc Waterfall / 2 Water Bowls)

I don't think I can plumb the extra suction lines for the feature pump, and I need advice on how to make it work with existing suction lines.

--Sam

 

[Lake Placid]

You have two options IMO if you’re going to try and use the existing plumbing.
You can:
1. Convert the pool main drain to solely feed your feature pump and allow the skimmers to solely service the pool suction side
2. Add a T in pool main drain suction line for the feature pump and allow the pool circulating pump to continue to utilize both for suction.

If you were to use option 2 I’d use 3 way diverter instead of a T to allow you to better try and balance the flow to both pumps.

If this is an existing pool pics of the pad would be helpful. Do you have any automation and the intention of trying to utilize it for the features?

 

[sam34786]

Thanks for your quick response.

1. Convert the pool main drain to solely feed your feature pump and allow the skimmers to solely service the pool suction side
This is the easiest option. I have read in this forum from multiple experts that's not an option as there must be min 2 suction lines as per the code and cannot share/divide the suction line.

2. Add a T in the pool main drain suction line for the feature pump and allow the pool circulating pump to continue to utilize both for suction.
Is it a good idea to run 2 pumps at the same time and share the same suction line?

2 VSF Pumps on Common Suction Header?

Looking to replumb my entire equipment pad. Can I put two Pentair VSF pumps on a Common Suction header(Skimmer & Drain)? Each pump will have a suction side Flow-Vis Check Valve. One pump is the main pump serving Pool/Spa, Filter, Heater, SCG and return lines. The other pump is for water...

www.troublefreepool.com

I have gone through the above link and trying to figure out what would be the best solution in my case.

1. Main Pump -- Pool Mode -- Suction (Both Skimmer and Pool Main Drain) --- Return WaterFall Features -- Can it handle Pentair 4 laminar Jets and 2 Pentair water bowls and Pentair 3 waterfalls ??? The pump is VSF Intellifo 3hp

2. Main Pump -- Spa Mode -- Suction (SPA Drain) --- Feature Pump (Both Skimmer and Pool Main Drain) -- Filter for Laminar jets and Water Bowl -- Water Fall Return. Is there a possibility of having a spillway effect from the spa to the pool in SPA mode?

Please suggest.

--Sam

 

[1poolman1]

Thanks for your quick response.

1. Convert the pool main drain to solely feed your feature pump and allow the skimmers to solely service the pool suction side
This is the easiest option. I have read in this forum from multiple experts that's not an option as there must be min 2 suction lines as per the code and cannot share/divide the suction line.

2. Add a T in the pool main drain suction line for the feature pump and allow the pool circulating pump to continue to utilize both for suction.
Is it a good idea to run 2 pumps at the same time and share the same suction line?

2 VSF Pumps on Common Suction Header?

Looking to replumb my entire equipment pad. Can I put two Pentair VSF pumps on a Common Suction header(Skimmer & Drain)? Each pump will have a suction side Flow-Vis Check Valve. One pump is the main pump serving Pool/Spa, Filter, Heater, SCG and return lines. The other pump is for water...

www.troublefreepool.com

I have gone through the above link and trying to figure out what would be the best solution in my case.

1. Main Pump -- Pool Mode -- Suction (Both Skimmer and Pool Main Drain) --- Return WaterFall Features -- Can it handle Pentair 4 laminar Jets and 2 Pentair water bowls and Pentair 3 waterfalls ??? The pump is VSF Intellifo 3hp

2. Main Pump -- Spa Mode -- Suction (SPA Drain) --- Feature Pump (Both Skimmer and Pool Main Drain) -- Filter for Laminar jets and Water Bowl -- Water Fall Return. Is there a possibility of having a spillway effect from the spa to the pool in SPA mode?

Please suggest.

--Sam

If you can isolate the main drains from the rest of the system, number 1 would work. You can then use the skimmer only as your source for filtration (if you have a suction cleaner with its own port, that would aid in flow).
The split main-drain would still meet code. The problem would be that suction ports for water features are usually on the side wall, about as deep as a pool light, so that there is less chance of pulling debris into the line. Most water-feature plumbing doesn't have a filter and laminar jets and arc waterfalls are easily clogged with larger debris. So, if doing it that way you should plan on a filter that will allow enough flow to satisfy the features requirements.

 

[mas985]

Thanks for your quick response.

1. Convert the pool main drain to solely feed your feature pump and allow the skimmers to solely service the pool suction side
This is the easiest option. I have read in this forum from multiple experts that's not an option as there must be min 2 suction lines as per the code and cannot share/divide the suction line.

This is not true. Where did you read this? A main drain usually consists of two MD sumps teed together and usually about 3' apart on the pool floor. This is what the code requires. This does not mean that the main drain cannot be separated from the skimmer and feed separate pumps.

Also, even if your pool has only one MD cover, as long as the cover is APSP-16 compliant and the pump has SVRS, you can still separate the MD from the skimmer and feed two pumps.

2. Add a T in the pool main drain suction line for the feature pump and allow the pool circulating pump to continue to utilize both for suction.
Is it a good idea to run 2 pumps at the same time and share the same suction line?

No it is not generally a good idea. Here are the limitations:

1) The suction lines need to be sized for total flow rate at full speed of both pumps. Assuming large VS pumps, this would be about 100+ GPM each or each suction pipes needs to be at least 2.5" in diameter, ideally 3", or you may have problems with air leaks and cavitation.

2) You would need check valves on the pump so when only one pump is running, it does not suck water backwards through the idle pump.

3) The pumps should have near identical head curves and operate at only the same speed or you could easily cause cavitation in the lower speed pump.

This is why we generally do not recommend running two pumps off the same suction lines.

 

[sam34786]

Thank you for your responses. I also have cleaner suction port (suction side) which is almost same height as pool light. Is it a good idea to use Main Drain or the Cleaner suction line for the feature pump.

Pool replastering is done recently and the contractor replaced the vaccum port with cover to return jet (acting like a suction line) and there is no change in the plumbing.

My question is whether we need to replace the jet to a vaccum port. Is there any particular accessory to install other than jet to handle the suction side.

—Sam

 

[mas985]

Thank you for your responses. I also have cleaner suction port (suction side) which is almost same height as pool light. Is it a good idea to use Main Drain or the Cleaner suction line for the feature pump.

The main drain is probably a better choice because it is a bigger pipe. For running a single VS pump, the line should be 2.5" or larger. What is the diameter of the MD and cleaner lines?

Pool replastering is done recently and the contractor replaced the vaccum port with cover to return jet (acting like a suction line) and there is no change in the plumbing.

A return jet should never be used on a suction line. Is it an eyeball or some other fitting over the pipe? An eyeball or reduced aperture would be an entrapment hazard.

My question is whether we need to replace the jet to a vaccum port. Is there any particular accessory to install other than jet to handle the suction side.

Again, a return jet should never be used on the suction side. For suction cleaner lines, it is generally a cover like this:

 

[sam34786]

Mark,

The main drain is probably a better choice because it is a bigger pipe. For running a single VS pump, the line should be 2.5" or larger. What is the diameter of the MD and cleaner lines?

I think MD is 3 inches, and the cleaner line is 2 inches please find the attachment for your reference. Shall I use a 3-way diverter valve at the MD to route it to Feature Pump? If I am not using the water feature then it can go to the pool route;

A return jet should never be used on a suction line. Is it an eyeball or some other fitting over the pipe? An eyeball or reduced aperture would be an entrapment hazard.

It's an eyeball over the pipe that looks similar to return jets. I have checked the suction using the valves and the water is pulling to the motor

Again, a return jet should never be used on the suction side. For suction cleaner lines, it is generally a cover like this:

View attachment 616649

During the time of plastering, they removed something like the attached picture and replaced it with the eyeball. I am not an expert so didn't recognize this until recently. How big of a job it is to replace the eyeball with this attached picture?

Once again, Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.

--Sam

 

[mas985]

Mark,


I think MD is 3 inches, and the cleaner line is 2 inches please find the attachment for your reference. Shall I use a 3-way diverter valve at the MD to route it to Feature Pump? If I am not using the water feature then it can go to the pool route;

I wouldn't bother using the MD in the filter loop. It is better to have all the filter flow come from the skimmer. It will work better at lower RPM that way.

It's an eyeball over the pipe that looks similar to return jets. I have checked the suction using the valves and the water is pulling to the motor

During the time of plastering, they removed something like the attached picture and replaced it with the eyeball. I am not an expert so didn't recognize this until recently. How big of a job it is to replace the eyeball with this attached picture?

Just unscrew the current fitting and screw in the proper one. It is likely that the installer thought that pipe was a return and just mistakenly put in the wrong fitting.

 

[sam34786]

I wouldn't bother using the MD in the filter loop. It is better to have all the filter flow come from the skimmer. It will work better at lower RPM that way.

We need a filter for the feature pump to send the water to laminar jets. Isnt it? I want to use a 3-way valve at the MD to control the flow of the water for the Main Pump and Feature Pump. I want to automate and run only the feature pump if the MD is closed to the Main pump and opened to the feature pump.

My pool cleaning company recommended to have 70 percent from SKimmer and 30% from MD and I know that won't be possible with the feature pump.

Does the main drain pull enough water to supply my feature pump to handle 4 Pentair laminar jets and 2 Pentair water bowls and 2 Pentair magicfalls.

Just unscrew the current fitting and screw in the proper one. It is likely that the installer thought that pipe was a return and just mistakenly put in the wrong fitting.

Got it. Thank you.

 

[mas985]

We need a filter for the feature pump to send the water to laminar jets. Isnt it?

Yes but you can use a filter designed specifically for water features or since they are such low flow rate, you could also run them off the main filter pump.

I want to use a 3-way valve at the MD to control the flow of the water for the Main Pump and Feature Pump. I want to automate and run only the feature pump if the MD is closed to the Main pump and opened to the feature pump.

I really don't understand why you would want to do this. There is no benefit. I would just keep the two plumbing loops completely separated without any valves between them.

My pool cleaning company recommended to have 70 percent from SKimmer and 30% from MD and I know that won't be possible with the feature pump.

You don't need to do this. You can run the main pump and filter system on the skimmer only. Many modern pools today do not even have main drains.

Does the main drain pull enough water to supply my feature pump to handle 4 Pentair laminar jets and 2 Pentair water bowls and 2 Pentair magicfalls.

From the pictures, it looks like the main drain line is much larger than the skimmer line. Is that correct?

The Pentair Laminar jets require 10 GPM each or 40 GPM total and as I said before, given this is only 40 GPM, you could put these on the main filter pumps.

The bowls need only 15 GPM each or 30 GPM total. These too could be put on the main pump.

The flow rate for the magic falls depends on the width. How wide are they? If they are 3' each, I would plan on at least 45 GPM each or a 90 GPM total.

So can you confirm the pipe diameter for each suction line and the distance from the pool to the pumps AND full set of picture of the equipment pad?

In addition, what is the make and model of the pumps?

 

[sam34786]

Yes but you can use a filter designed specifically for water features or since they are such low flow rate, you could also run them off the main filter pump.

I have already purchased and installed the new filter; the filter model is cc100; Please let me know if it's the right one to run all the water features

I really don't understand why you would want to do this. There is no benefit. I would just keep the two plumbing loops completely separated without any valves between them.
You don't need to do this. You can run the main pump and filter system on the skimmer only. Many modern pools today do not even have main drains.

I will follow your advice. The current setup is "T" on the main drain to route it to both the Main pump and feature pumps. I have to replumb to connect MD directly to the suction side of the feature pump.

From the pictures, it looks like the main drain line is much larger than the skimmer line. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct. The Main Drain is much larger and I think it's 3" whereas the Skimmer is 2". I don't plan to use the vacuum line to connect vacuum cleaners. Shall I use the vacuum line as a wall suction line so that the main pump has 2 suction lines (SKimmer and Wall Vaccum line)? Is there any specific cover to go over the vacuum line?

The vacuum plug that you recommended opens only when the vacuum hose gets connected. Is there any other plug that acts like a wall suction plug (For example cover like MD).

The Pentair Laminar jets require 10 GPM each or 40 GPM total and as I said before, given this is only 40 GPM, you could put these on the main filter pumps.

The bowls need only 15 GPM each or 30 GPM total. These too could be put on the main pump.

The flow rate for the magic falls depends on the width. How wide are they? If they are 3' each, I would plan on at least 45 GPM each or a 90 GPM total.

The width of Magic Falls are 2 - 18 inches and one -- 24 inches (Total of 3)

So can you confirm the pipe diameter for each suction line and the distance from the pool to the pumps AND full set of picture of the equipment pad?

MD - 3 inches
Skimmer - 2 inches
Pool MD Drain - 2 inches
Cleaner (Vacuum line) - 2 inches

In addition, what is the make and model of the pumps?

Intellifo VSP 3hp for feature pump - 356903.A - Feature Pump
Intellifo Variable Speed Pump - 354605.E -- Main Pump

 

[sam34786]

Please check 2 more photos.

 

[mas985]

I have already purchased and installed the new filter; the filter model is cc100; Please let me know if it's the right one to run all the water features

Is that dedicated for the water features or are you using it as the main circulation filter? That filter has a maximum flow rate rating of only 100 GPM (50 GPM recommended) which is much too small for all the water features. It is also too small if you are going to use it for the main filter. The main filter should be 300 sq-ft or larger so you don't have to clean it very often.

From the pictures, it doesn't look like you have any filters for the water features right now anyway. Many pools don't use them and just clean out the features when they clog. The waterfall is probably the most critical and you just want to avoid getting rocks into it which the rock trap will do.

Waterfall Rock Trap

Is the CMP 25577-950-000 Rock Trap Sheer Descent Necessary if the water is filtering through the main Filter. Problem I’m having is how to install it on a bottom port feed. Thanks in advance

forum.inyopools.com

Yes, that's correct. The Main Drain is much larger and I think it's 3" whereas the Skimmer is 2". I don't plan to use the vacuum line to connect vacuum cleaners. Shall I use the vacuum line as a wall suction line so that the main pump has 2 suction lines (SKimmer and Wall Vaccum line)? Is there any specific cover to go over the vacuum line?

To use the cleaner port as a suction port you will need a VGBA/APSP-16 compliant cover. Something like this:

6" Ultra Suction & Equalizer - Waterway Plastics

Pool & Spa Products

waterwayplastics.com

The vacuum plug that you recommended opens only when the vacuum hose gets connected. Is there any other plug that acts like a wall suction plug (For example cover like MD).

The width of Magic Falls are 2 - 18 inches and one -- 24 inches (Total of 3)

That is a total of 5 ft and at 15 GPM/ft, that is a total of 75 GPM. [EDIT] So the total for water features would be 75+40+30 or 145 GPM but it is good to have a bit of margin to work with because running all three off the same pump is going to require adjustments to each to get the effects you want but I don't think your current pump can meet that flow rate given the restrictions in the plumbing.

MD - 3 inches
Skimmer - 2 inches
Pool MD Drain - 2 inches
Cleaner (Vacuum line) - 2 inches

So now I am really confused. I though the pool main drain was 3". Is the spa MD 3"? From the pictures, it looks like the pool MD is 3" and the spa MD is 2". But 2" is really too small for both. How many jets does the spa have?

Who ever did your pool plumbing design did you absolutely no favors.

Intellifo VSP 3hp for feature pump - 356903.A - Feature Pump
Intellifo Variable Speed Pump - 354605.E -- Main Pump

356903.A & 354605.E are not actual model numbers.

Pentair Intelliflo model numbers start with a 0 for example:

Pentair IntelliFlo 2 VST 011055
Pentair INTELLIFLO 3 VSF 011075
Pentair INTELLIFLO 3 VSF, IO BOARD 011076
Pentair IntelliFlo i1 VS 011059
Pentair IntelliFlo i2 VS 011060
Pentair IntelliFlo VS 011018
Pentair IntelliFlo VS 011028
Pentair IntelliFlo VS 3050
Pentair IntelliFlo VS EC-011028
Pentair IntelliFlo VS+SVRS 011017
Pentair IntelliFlo VS+SVRS 011057
Pentair IntelliFlo VS+SVRS EC-011057
Pentair IntelliFlo VSF 011056
Pentair IntelliFlo XF VS+SVRS 022057
Pentair IntelliFlo XF VSF 022056

 

[sam34786]

Is that dedicated for the water features or are you using it as the main circulation filter? That filter has a maximum flow rate rating of only 100 GPM (50 GPM recommended) which is much too small for all the water features. It is also too small if you are going to use it for the main filter. The main filter should be 300 sq-ft or larger so you don't have to clean it very often.

From the pictures, it doesn't look like you have any filters for the water features right now anyway. Many pools don't use them and just clean out the features when they clog. The waterfall is probably the most critical and you just want to avoid getting rocks into it which the rock trap will do.

I would like to purchase the new filter. What would
be your recommendation for the water features.

Waterfall Rock Trap

Is the CMP 25577-950-000 Rock Trap Sheer Descent Necessary if the water is filtering through the main Filter. Problem I’m having is how to install it on a bottom port feed. Thanks in advance

forum.inyopools.com

To use the cleaner port as a suction port you will need a VGBA/APSP-16 compliant cover. Something like this:

6" Ultra Suction & Equalizer - Waterway Plastics

Pool & Spa Products

waterwayplastics.com

That is a total of 5 ft and at 15 GPM/ft, that is a total of 75 GPM. So the total for water features would be 75+40+30 or 105 GPM but it is good to have a bit of margin to work with because running all three off the same pump is going to require adjustments to each to get the effects you want so I would plan on at least 120 GPM.

So now I am really confused. I though the pool main drain was 3". Is the spa MD 3"? From the pictures, it looks like the pool MD is 3" and the spa MD is 2". But 2" is really too small for both. How many jets does the spa have?

Spa has a total of 4 jets and you are right SPA Drain is 2 inches. I have purchased this home with pool built and I am just adding the water features.

Who ever did your pool plumbing design did you absolutely no favors.


356903.A & 354605.E are not actual model numbers.

Pentair Intelliflo model numbers start with a 0 for example:

Pentair IntelliFlo 2 VST 011055
Pentair INTELLIFLO 3 VSF 011075
Pentair INTELLIFLO 3 VSF, IO BOARD 011076
Pentair IntelliFlo i1 VS 011059
Pentair IntelliFlo i2 VS 011060
Pentair IntelliFlo VS 011018
Pentair IntelliFlo VS 011028
Pentair IntelliFlo VS 3050
Pentair IntelliFlo VS EC-011028
Pentair IntelliFlo VS+SVRS 011017
Pentair IntelliFlo VS+SVRS 011057
Pentair IntelliFlo VS+SVRS EC-011057
Pentair IntelliFlo VSF 011056
Pentair IntelliFlo XF VS+SVRS 022057
Pentair IntelliFlo XF VSF 022056

The pump model that I have purchased is Pentair IntelliFlo VSF 011056 3HP Variable Speed Pool Pump

I am attaching the old pump image.

 

[mas985]

I just realized that I did not add the laminar jets into the total flow rate calculation above. So if you add everything together, it is 145 GPM and that pump on that plumbing will not do that much flow rate.

Is everything up and running currently and can you see how all the features are working?

You just need to decide if everything looks ok to you or you would like to get more flow to each feature.

I would like to purchase the new filter. What would
be your recommendation for the water features.

The current filter you have will still work, it will just go through cartridges a lot faster than if you had a larger filter. As it is right now, you might not be getting even close to 100 GPM out the system anyway. I can estimate the current flow rate with the following:

Feature filter pressure?

Distance from pump to pool MD?

 

[sam34786]

I just realized that I did not add the laminar jets into the total flow rate calculation above. So if you add everything together, it is 145 GPM and that pump on that plumbing will not do that much flow rate.

Is everything up and running currently and can you see how all the features are working?

I am not getting enough suction to the feature pump from the Main Drain. MD is completely closed for main pool pump. There isn’t enough pressure for all the features to run.

After 10 mins, feature pump is going into priming alert and then pump stops.

You just need to decide if everything looks ok to you or you would like to get more flow to each feature.

Definitely need to get more flow to each feature and the suction is not working properly for feature pump.

The current filter you have will still work, it will just go through cartridges a lot faster than if you had a larger filter. As it is right now, you might not be getting even close to 100 GPM out the system anyway. I can estimate the current flow rate with the following:


Feature filter pressure?

Distance from pump to pool MD?

Distance from pump to Pool MD would be around 70 - 75 feet.

Feature filter pressure -
Laminar jets : shouldn’t exceed more than 50psi each one
Water bowls : 56.8 LPM each one
Water falls: https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...magicfalls-water-effects-brochure-english.pdf

3 water falls (two 18 inch and one 24 inch)

 

[mas985]

I am not getting enough suction to the feature pump from the Main Drain. MD is completely closed for main pool pump. There isn’t enough pressure for all the features to run.

After 10 mins, feature pump is going into priming alert and then pump stops.

So the pump does not prime at all?

Did you fill the pump basket with water first?

 

[sam34786]

So the pump does not prime at all?

Pump is working fine for 5 mins and then throwing an alert and getting stopped.

Did you fill the pump basket with water first?

Yes, I have tried that but it’s not pulling enough water to run the features. I checked multiple times in the morning and thought that the MD is clogged and needs to cleanup.

What would be your suggestion for the new filter? I have purchased this feature pump last year and will it do the trick or I got the wrong pump for features.

 

[mas985]

Then something is wrong with the plumbing. 3" should be plenty to prime this pump and the filter, while not ideal, should not be the issue for priming. I suspect a valve may be in the wrong position or the line is clogged. Did you check to see if you can draw from the same MD line solo on the other pump?