Stumped by SWG

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JamesW said:
The power should use a Full Wave Bridge Rectifier and Capacitors to smooth the DC to a steady DC voltage.
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It has a bridge rectifier mounted to the case. The PCB has several substantial electrolytic caps. The filtering ability looks adequate.

I'm not sure whether it's Chinese or not. It does look well built. I worked in and around electronics my whole professional life. I've seen much cheesier devices than this one.
 
Oy vey. I assume you see some contradiction in those statements. However, both can be and are most likely true. The control box does seem well built. But the complete system seems to suck as it doesn't produce any chlorine.

The signal to noise ratio of this thread is dropping.
 
JamesW said:
That happens for AC, but I think that DC current is mostly going to electrolysis reactions.

Should be, but maybe the system is defective and not outputting the correct voltage.

You don't have to bring the Oscilloscope outside; just get some long wires.

Can your multimeter measure frequency?
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Current = voltage/resistance regardless of frequency.

I've verified correct voltage and current. My meter matches exactly what the readout of the controller says.

I don't think we'll find any AC in the power to the cell. At this point though I'm willing to try anything though.

Yes, my meter (Fluke 87) can measure frequency.
 
We need someone who in the plating or electrolysis field to chime in. My plating/coating experience is limited to chemical vapor deposition, sputtering using ions and corrosion/abrasion performance.

My very limited understanding of the chlorine evolution reaction (even with all of @JamesW's information) I would think you could still have the correct voltage and amperage. A small amount of the power would product chlorine and the rest could be making hydrogen and oxygen (or some other gas) that is all quickly absorbed back into the water quickly.

If you are up for more testing, how about testing to see if the cell can produce measurable amounts of chlorine in a 5 gallon bucket or 30 gallon garbage can? Start with fresh water and salt to taste. Use a small fountain pump to flow water through the cell (bypass the flow switch) I am guessing the entire cell can be submerged.
 
Turniptruck said:
Current = voltage/resistance regardless of frequency.
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That works for solids like metals, but not for electrolytes in water.

For an aqueous solution, applying a constant voltage (DC voltage) across two electrodes causes electrolysis of the water.

To prevent this, an alternating voltage (AC voltage) is applied when measuring conductivity.

If you measure resistance or conductivity of the water, you use AC.

If you apply a DC voltage, the resistance or conductivity will be different.
 
Bill1974 said:
A small amount of the power would product chlorine and the rest could be making hydrogen and oxygen (or some other gas) that is all quickly absorbed back into the water quickly.
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Hydrogen is always produced.

Some oxygen is probably produced, but it is probably a small proportion of the total electrolysis.

For example, the amount of oxygen might be 5% and chlorine production is 95%.

If you reduce production, then the amount of both products is reduced equally.

I don't think that you will see a situation where the percentage of oxygen suddenly increases significantly while the production of chlorine decreases by the same amount.

For example, the amount of oxygen won't increase to 50% and the amount of chlorine won't decrease to 50%.
 
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In electrolysis what drives what elements are produced and how much of each? I assume voltage, current, aqueous solution composition, temperature, pressure, anode composition, etc are all variables. Some are more significant contributors that others. I would also guess that changing inputs would vary the output. Is the ratios of the of chlorine, oxygen and hydrogen output mainly by the driven by the strength of the chemical bonds? Why is a ruthenium oxide coating titanium anode use and not some other material anode? how significant of a factor is it compared to the other inputs?
 

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Sources of energy losses in chlorine cells include anode or cathode overvoltage, too large a drop across the diaphragm, oxygen
evolution on the anode.

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Chlorine gas and sodium chlorate are two base chemicals produced through electrolysis of sodium chloride brine which find uses in many areas of industrial chemistry.

Although the industrial production of these chemicals started over 100 years ago, there are still factors that limit the energy efficiencies of the processes.

This review focuses on the unwanted production of oxygen gas, which decreases the charge yield by up to 5%.

Understanding the factors that control the rate of oxygen production requires understanding of both chemical reactions occurring in the electrolyte, as well as surface reactions occurring on the anodes.

The dominant anode material used in chlorate and chlor-alkali production is the dimensionally stable anode (DSA), Ti coated by a mixed oxide of RuO2 and TiO2.

Although the selectivity for chlorine evolution on DSA is high, the fundamental reasons for this high selectivity are just now becoming elucidated.
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Bill1974 said:
In electrolysis what drives what elements are produced and how much of each? I assume voltage, current, aqueous solution composition, temperature, pressure, anode composition, etc are all variables. Some are more significant contributors that others. I would also guess that changing inputs would vary the output. Is the ratios of the of chlorine, oxygen and hydrogen output mainly by the driven by the strength of the chemical bonds? Why is a ruthenium oxide coating titanium anode use and not some other material anode? how significant of a factor is it compared to the other inputs?
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Contact the people who make the plates for the cell.



Our Legacy
In 1982, we introduced the pioneering DSA® anode tailored specifically for pool applications, setting a benchmark for performance to this day. Since its inception, this electrode has consistently delivered outstanding results, solidifying its position as the most validated salt pool anode in the industry.

The De Nora DSA® anode for swimming pool chlorination stands as a hallmark of specialized technology, seamlessly integrated into the offerings of leading swimming pool equipment manufacturers worldwide. Its adaptability makes it equally suitable for residential, spa, and commercial settings.

Overall Chemistry Reaction:NaCl + H2O + electricity --> NaOCl (disinfectant)Primary Anode Reaction: 2 Cl- - 2 e- ⇒ Cl2Primary Cathode Reaction: 2H2O + 2 e- ⇒ H2 + 2 OH-

Overall Chemistry Reaction:
NaCl + H2O + electricity --> NaOCl (disinfectant)
Primary Anode Reaction: 2 Cl- - 2 e- ⇒ Cl2
Primary Cathode Reaction: 2H2O + 2 e- ⇒ H2 + 2 OH-

Industrie De Nora S.p.A.​

Via Leonardo Bistolfi, 35
20134 Milan Italy

Ph. +39 02 21291
[email protected]

 
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Diamond Shamrock Corp. created the Lectranator in 1976.

In 1982, Denora Tech introduced the pioneering DSA anode tailored specifically for pool applications,

In 1994, Goldline Controls began producing Aqua Rite salt chlorinators for swimming pools.

Hayward Industries, Inc. acquired Goldline Controls in August 2004.

SWG How It Works - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
At a pH of 7.5, the concentration of hydroxide ions is 10-6.5 moles/liter.

3,200 ppm salinity = 0.05478 moles per liter.

The salt concentration is 173,230 times higher than the hydroxide ion concentration.

I would estimate the amount of oxygen production to be about 5%, but you would need to contact a company like Denora who has actual test data and they can explain production vs. variables like water temperature, salinity, voltage, current etc.
 
O2 can be produced from hydroxide or from water.

The hydroxide reaction should be insignificant due to the low concentration at pool pH.

The water reaction has a similar half cell potential, so it should happen to some degree.

At low salinity and/or low water temperature, I think that the production of oxygen is increased, but I do not know from what percentages.

Denora makes good plates, but the cheaper cells probably use a cheaper plate process, so maybe more oxygen is evolved.

Oxygen production uses the same amount of current, so it can be difficult to tell if you are producing chlorine or oxygen.

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