Stumped by SWG

[Lake Placid]

Bottom line unless you’ve given incorrect part numbers is that you have 2 40,000 gallon cells that are probably working just fine.

The 40K gallon cell is a PG-5067-1
The 60K gallon cell is a BLT15H-2W

BLT15H-2W comes back to a blue works 40k cell

BLUE WORKS Salt Cell Model Number: BLT15H Fit for Hayward Salt Cell T-Cell-15, 2-Year Warranty (Clear) https://a.co/d/07uHD81O



PG5967-1 comes back to an excel 40k cell.

Excel Salt Water Chlorine Generator System - Excel Pool Products

The Excel Salt Water Chlorine Generator System brings a new level of convenience and durability for your backyard saltwater pool.

excelpoolproducts.com

 

[JamesW]

Does the amp draw remain as high as on a properly working cell without the proper ruthenium coating?

Amperage is directly proportional to chlorine production.

If the amperage is good, the cell is working.

The only other reaction you can get is the production of oxygen gas instead of chlorine gas, but that is insignificant if the salinity level is good.

 

[Bill1974]

Amperage is directly proportional to chlorine production.

If the amperage is good, the cell is working.

The only other reaction you can get is the production of oxygen gas instead of chlorine gas, but that is insignificant if the salinity level is good.

@JamesW Can you elaborate on this?

I can understand the current will continue to flow, but the ruthenium coating is important for the chlorine evolution reaction.
Why Ruthenium Oxide Coating Titanium Anode is Used in Chlorine Evolution Reaction?
Why RuO2 IrO2 Coated Titanium Electrodes are Best for Disinfection?

I could be wrong, but I think the ruthenium coating is what creates the most nucleation points for the reaction, along with being resilient and cost effective. Other anode materials and coatings could be used they would just be less efficient or are not safe for use in a pool environment.

 

[JamesW]

I can understand the current will continue to flow, but the ruthenium coating is important for the chlorine evolution reaction.

Correct.

The platinum group metal is a catalyst for the reaction.

If the coating is missing or thin, then production is reduced and this causes less amperage.

Amperage can be used to calculate production.

 

[JamesW]

You might get more oxygen production with a weak or missing ruthenium coating.

If you have amperage, then you have to have oxygen or chlorine gas being produced.

You have electrons entering the cathode from the power supply negative terminal and then leaving the cathode by going onto hydrogen ions.

You have electrons leaving the chloride ions and entering the anode and then leaving the anode to go to the power supply positive terminal.

Electrons leave the cathode and go onto positively charged hydrogen ions, which converts the hydrogen ions into hydrogen gas.

Electrons come from the negatively charged chloride ions and flow onto the anode.

From the power supply, it sees an equal number of electrons leaving and returning, but the electrons that are returning are not the same ones that left.

 

[JamesW]

Current flowing through water happens with the charged particles (Anions and Cations) and not with electrons.

If you use DC, the anode gets surrounded with anions and the cathode gets surrounded with Cations and no current flows through the water.

For current to flow through the water, you need to use AC Voltage and the power depends on the voltage, current and resistance.

Most of the power used is heat due to the resistance of the water and current.

How do I calculate power from Ohm's law?

We can calculate power (P) with Ohm's law in various ways:

Multiplying the voltage by the current: P = V × I (the most common formula for Ohm's law power calculation).

Multiplying the resistance by the square of the current: P = R × I².

In the below video, the AC is creating bubbles at each electrode.

The bubbles are probably due to electrolysis.

The current is alternating, so you probably have oxygen bubbles and hydrogen bubbles being generated as the electrodes change from positive to negative.

The water does eventually boil.

A flame test could confirm the production of hydrogen.

 

[JamesW]

Using AC, most current is heat from current going through the water.

For AC, the electrons do not leave the metal electrodes; the current is carried by the charged particles (Anions (-) and Cations (+)).

You can probably get some electrolysis, but not a lot compared to the heat.

Using DC, electrons do enter and leave the electrodes.

Using DC, most current is electrolysis and not current flowing from cathode to anode.

You probably get some direct current, but probably not a lot.

Electrolysis of water - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

 

[JamesW]

The anode and cathode are electrodes.

The Anode is the electrode that has electrons leaving.

The Cathode is the electrode that has electrons arriving.

For electrolysis, the DC power supply has the negative terminal connected to the cathode so electrons go from the power supply to the cathode and then out of the cathode into the hydrogen ions, which converts the hydrogen ions into hydrogen gas, which is called reduction.

For electrolysis, the DC power supply has the positive terminal connected to the anode so electrons go from the chloride ions (anions) to the anode and then from the anode to the power supply positive terminal, which converts the chloride ions into chlorine gas, which is called oxidation.

For electrolysis, each electrode has electrons entering and leaving, so it can be confusing to determine which is the anode vs. cathode.

For a galvanic cell, the anode (like zinc) loses electrons and the cathode like a noble metal receives electrons.

The anode may be called the electron donor and the cathode the electron acceptor.

In a Galvanic cell, the anode is negative and the cathode positive.

The reverse is true for electrolytic cells where the anode is positive and the cathode is negative.

A reaction occurs at each electrode.

These are called half-cell reactions.

 

[JamesW]

Platinum and Platinum Group metals are often used in catalytic processes such as Platinum in Catalytic Converters for cars.

 

[JamesW]

If you fill the cell with regular tap water with no salt and then applied 24 to 30 Volts DC, the amount of current will be based on oxygen production.

Most likely, this current will be very small.

Most tap water has chloride, so the current will produce oxygen and chlorine gas.

You can fill the cell with deionized or distilled water and apply about 24 to 30 volts DC and see how much current is created.

You can probably assume that the amount of oxygen produced is proportional to the current.

Subtract the current from the cell normal operating current to get the current associated with chlorine production.

 

[JamesW]

 

[trivetman]

Firehose of information thrown at face…..will try to digest….

 

[Turniptruck]

Firehose of information thrown at face…..will try to digest….

Agreed!... and I still cannot find a definitive explanation as to whether a cell with defective or missing plate coating would draw a normal amperage.

My cell is drawing normal current but not producing chlorine. I used a pool noodle to take some water directly from a return and into a bucket. That sample has exactly the same FC content as the pool water.

 

[JamesW]

I still cannot find a definitive explanation as to whether a cell with defective or missing plate coating would draw a normal amperage.

I do not think that it would draw a normal current.

The current has to be going somewhere and doing something.

What else do you think the current could be doing?

I have said several times that amperage is directly proportional to chlorine production.

If you have current, it is making chlorine.

 

[JamesW]

Maybe the output voltage is AC and not DC.

Put an oscilloscope on the output and show what the voltage looks like.

Does your multimeter test for frequency?

 

[Turniptruck]

What else do you think the current could be doing?

Through the water from plate to plate. I can place the test probes of my meter next to each other in the water and read somewhere just south of 1000 ohms. Those probes are just zinc plated steel and make very little surface contact with the water. Given the surface area of the plates and the proximity of the two polarities, I think they could be made of anything and voltage/current would flow between them.

 

[Turniptruck]

Maybe the output voltage is AC and not DC.

Put an oscilloscope on the output and show what the voltage looks like.

Does your multimeter test for frequency?

The output "Should" be DC as described by the controller's manual and explanation of how it works. When set for AC, my meter reads under 50 millivolts when connected to the cell. There is very little AC component in the power to the cell.

My scope is heavy and expensive. I'm sure I want to drag it out to the pool!

 

[JamesW]

Through the water from plate to plate.

That happens for AC, but I think that DC current is mostly going to electrolysis reactions.

The output "Should" be DC as described by the controller's manual and explanation of how it works.

Should be, but maybe the system is defective and not outputting the correct voltage.

My scope is heavy and expensive. I'm sure I want to drag it out to the pool!

You don't have to bring the Oscilloscope outside; just get some long wires.

Can your multimeter measure frequency?

 

[JamesW]

The power should use a Full Wave Bridge Rectifier and Capacitors to smooth the DC to a steady DC voltage.

Your system is a cheap Chinese model that probably does not have a good DC waveform.

Break out the Oscilloscope and let's get a look at that voltage waveform.

 

[JamesW]