Stinging sensation – bonding issue, stray voltage, or something else?
- Thread starter newtoPoolsSWG
- Start date
You can use a clamp ammeter to measure for current at the red circled area.
You can disconnect the wire and measure for current using the in series method.
You can disconnect the wire from the main ground rod and measure for a voltage between the rod and the wire (red arrow).
One issue is that the pool acts as a second grounding electrode and it will reduce voltage gradients.
The best way is to disconnect the main neutral at the meter can and then the system is better isolated.
The ground rod can carry current, so only an electrician should disconnect the wire.
The main neutral can be disconnected by an electrician.
The neutral is difficult to work on since it is near the high voltage and only an electrician should do that.
You can disconnect the wire and measure for current using the in series method.
You can disconnect the wire from the main ground rod and measure for a voltage between the rod and the wire (red arrow).
One issue is that the pool acts as a second grounding electrode and it will reduce voltage gradients.
The best way is to disconnect the main neutral at the meter can and then the system is better isolated.
The ground rod can carry current, so only an electrician should disconnect the wire.
The main neutral can be disconnected by an electrician.
The neutral is difficult to work on since it is near the high voltage and only an electrician should do that.
I attempted an NEV test I noted in post 67
Post in thread 'Stinging sensation – bonding issue, stray voltage, or something else?'
Stinging sensation – bonding issue, stray voltage, or something else?
If the inspector said that it was safe, I don't know that I would be too worried about it.
You have probably done about as much as you can do.
Unless you can find a good electrician who knows what to check, you have probably done what can be done.
If people report any problems, then check it out farther.
In general, do you feel comfortable that the inspector was competent in their assessment?
You have probably done about as much as you can do.
Unless you can find a good electrician who knows what to check, you have probably done what can be done.
If people report any problems, then check it out farther.
In general, do you feel comfortable that the inspector was competent in their assessment?
I think the inspector was competent. He also called 4 colleagues to explain the situation to see if they had other ideas.
We did swim last night without any incidents.
- May 3, 2007
- 18,095
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Sorry I missed this
The screw driver is a little close to the meter so the voltage will be less than it would further away but given you did measure a voltage, that indicates a voltage on the neutral relative to earth ground (NEV).
Were all of these tests performed relative to the same screw driver location?
What did you touch for the meter reading? The painted case is not a very good contact. The ground terminal of an outlet would be a better choice.
The screw driver is a little close to the meter so the voltage will be less than it would further away but given you did measure a voltage, that indicates a voltage on the neutral relative to earth ground (NEV).
Were all of these tests performed relative to the same screw driver location?
What did you touch for the meter reading? The painted case is not a very good contact. The ground terminal of an outlet would be a better choice.
Although it looks close, The screw driver is 6-10’ from the meter. I did touch the metal paint on the meter (.29). I also touched the ground wire where the cable attached to the meter (1v). If I use the 1v reference instead the other readings are much more in line.
_______________________________________________________________
Note: Do not do anything without proper qualifications.
Have an electrician do any work that you are not 100% qualified to do.
_______________________________________________________________
This is what it looks like in your meter box.
If you can disconnect the neutral and measure from the neutral wire to the neutral wire terminal with the main breaker off, that will give you the best indication of the neutral voltage.
However, as you can see, the neutral is close to the two hot lines and those lines can deliver 200 amps, so it is super dangerous.
Can you show a picture of your main ground rod?
You can open the other two boxes and disconnect the wires to see if that makes any difference, but you need the provider to do that since they don’t want people doing things in their boxes and it’s not safe to work on unless you are qualified.
_______________________________________________________________
Note: Do not do anything without proper qualifications.
Have an electrician do any work that you are not 100% qualified to do.
_______________________________________________________________
Note: Do not do anything without proper qualifications.
Have an electrician do any work that you are not 100% qualified to do.
_______________________________________________________________
This is what it looks like in your meter box.
If you can disconnect the neutral and measure from the neutral wire to the neutral wire terminal with the main breaker off, that will give you the best indication of the neutral voltage.
However, as you can see, the neutral is close to the two hot lines and those lines can deliver 200 amps, so it is super dangerous.
Can you show a picture of your main ground rod?
You can open the other two boxes and disconnect the wires to see if that makes any difference, but you need the provider to do that since they don’t want people doing things in their boxes and it’s not safe to work on unless you are qualified.
_______________________________________________________________
Note: Do not do anything without proper qualifications.
Have an electrician do any work that you are not 100% qualified to do.
_______________________________________________________________
- May 3, 2007
- 18,095
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Ok, that makes more sense. It looks like there is some NEV and most likely the voltage varies over the course of the day depending on the network load. So it may or may not be a long term issue.
What would be a normal and acceptable level and what would constitute a level that would be cause for concern?
- May 3, 2007
- 18,095
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
From what I have read, most power companies do not get too concerned until it gets above 4v. This is from my PC:
Given you need more than 10x that amount to have even the smallest risk of death, that is not unreasonable. However, that doesn't mean it isn't uncomfortable and a nuisance.
Just thinking out loud and maybe a crackpot idea but what about conductive paint on the deck surface with a bonding plate(s) close to the hot spots. It might help and a lot cheaper than a new deck.
hollandshielding.com
Given you need more than 10x that amount to have even the smallest risk of death, that is not unreasonable. However, that doesn't mean it isn't uncomfortable and a nuisance.
Just thinking out loud and maybe a crackpot idea but what about conductive paint on the deck surface with a bonding plate(s) close to the hot spots. It might help and a lot cheaper than a new deck.
Conductive transparent paint.
Aerosol permanently conductive graphene hybrid transparent acrylic paint. Applications in lighting, windows, clear covers and lids, displays etc.
Note: Only consider doing something like this if you have approval of a qualified professional like an engineer or other such qualified professional.
What if you put copper ground rods around the pool at maybe 2 to 4 foot apart and run a copper bond wire so that it connects to each ground rod?
This should essentially form a Faraday cage around the entire area and any stray current would (theoretically) be intercepted and routed around the protected area.
You could tie it into the existing bonding grid.
This would be a lot of work and a lot of money, but it might help.
There’s always a risk that you would hit something underground like a utility line, power, water, gas, sewer etc. and cause damage.
There’s also a risk that it might make things worse depending on what is causing the stray current/voltage.
ERICO. 5/8 in. x 8 ft. Copper Ground Rod.
Internet #202195738
Model #615880UPC
Store SKU #687693
$20.94
ERICO copper-bonded ground rods are the highest quality ground rods available today.
We use a unique manufacturing process, which includes drawing the steel rod to size before the copper bonding process begins.
This results in a straighter, harder steel core, making installation easier.
ERICO uses a continuous electro-plating process over the steel core that results in a permanent molecular bond that provides decades of reliable performance.
Our state-of-the-art ISO registered manufacturing facility provides a consistent, high-quality finished product that is used in millions of installations around the world.
99.9% pure electrolytic copper coating
Molecular bond to nickel-sealed high strength steel core
Rods have a high carbon steel core and tip that provide superior strength when driving
Copper coating will not crack when bent or tear when driven
Minimum copper coating of 10 mils on rods listed to UL- 467
ERICO name, length, diameter and part number is roll-stamped within 12" (304,8 mm) of chamfered end
UL logo and control number where applicable stamped on each rod for easy inspection after installation
What if you put copper ground rods around the pool at maybe 2 to 4 foot apart and run a copper bond wire so that it connects to each ground rod?
This should essentially form a Faraday cage around the entire area and any stray current would (theoretically) be intercepted and routed around the protected area.
You could tie it into the existing bonding grid.
This would be a lot of work and a lot of money, but it might help.
There’s always a risk that you would hit something underground like a utility line, power, water, gas, sewer etc. and cause damage.
There’s also a risk that it might make things worse depending on what is causing the stray current/voltage.
ERICO. 5/8 in. x 8 ft. Copper Ground Rod.
Internet #202195738
Model #615880UPC
Store SKU #687693
$20.94
ERICO copper-bonded ground rods are the highest quality ground rods available today.
We use a unique manufacturing process, which includes drawing the steel rod to size before the copper bonding process begins.
This results in a straighter, harder steel core, making installation easier.
ERICO uses a continuous electro-plating process over the steel core that results in a permanent molecular bond that provides decades of reliable performance.
Our state-of-the-art ISO registered manufacturing facility provides a consistent, high-quality finished product that is used in millions of installations around the world.
99.9% pure electrolytic copper coating
Molecular bond to nickel-sealed high strength steel core
Rods have a high carbon steel core and tip that provide superior strength when driving
Copper coating will not crack when bent or tear when driven
Minimum copper coating of 10 mils on rods listed to UL- 467
ERICO name, length, diameter and part number is roll-stamped within 12" (304,8 mm) of chamfered end
UL logo and control number where applicable stamped on each rod for easy inspection after installation
ERICO 5/8 in. x 8 ft. Copper Grounding Bar Rod 615880UPC - The Home Depot
Protect your home and family from electrical shock with this ERITECH Copper Ground Rod. UL certified product for added protection.
www.homedepot.com
- May 3, 2007
- 18,095
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
The voltage gradient from a ground rod is very steep (~1/r2) so while it might help around the edges of the deck, it might not provide much help in the middle of the deck where someone is likely to step out of the pool. There will still be conductive path to earth right below the concrete and that will not be at the same potential as the ground rods because of the separation. This is why I suggested conductive paint to force the entire deck surface to the same potential as the pool.
If the inspector said it was safe, I would not worry about it too much as long as no one feels anything.
If people complain, maybe consider putting ground rods at 4 corners around the pool to see if that helps.
If it reduces the problem, but not completely, add 4 more etc.
Maybe cut the rods in half and only go down 4 feet each instead of 8 feet.
Only do this if you can get the approval of a qualified expert and if you can verify that it is safe to do so.
If people complain, maybe consider putting ground rods at 4 corners around the pool to see if that helps.
If it reduces the problem, but not completely, add 4 more etc.
Maybe cut the rods in half and only go down 4 feet each instead of 8 feet.
Only do this if you can get the approval of a qualified expert and if you can verify that it is safe to do so.
If no one complains, probably nothing to worry about.
If there are complaints and something has to be done, replacing the deck with an included copper mesh would probably be the best solution.
If there are complaints and something has to be done, replacing the deck with an included copper mesh would probably be the best solution.
That stuff will wear off quite quickly.From what I have read, most power companies do not get too concerned until it gets above 4v. This is from my PC:
Given you need more than 10x that amount to have even the smallest risk of death, that is not unreasonable. However, that doesn't mean it isn't uncomfortable and a nuisance.
Just thinking out loud and maybe a crackpot idea but what about conductive paint on the deck surface with a bonding plate(s) close to the hot spots. It might help and a lot cheaper than a new deck.
Conductive transparent paint.
Aerosol permanently conductive graphene hybrid transparent acrylic paint. Applications in lighting, windows, clear covers and lids, displays etc.
How deep should you place the rods? How do you know if this will work or make it worse? Did you do some kind of ground study?Note: Only consider doing something like this if you have approval of a qualified professional like an engineer or other such qualified professional.
What if you put copper ground rods around the pool at maybe 2 to 4 foot apart and run a copper bond wire so that it connects to each ground rod?
This should essentially form a Faraday cage around the entire area and any stray current would (theoretically) be intercepted and routed around the protected area.
You could tie it into the existing bonding grid.
This would be a lot of work and a lot of money, but it might help.
There’s always a risk that you would hit something underground like a utility line, power, water, gas, sewer etc. and cause damage.
There’s also a risk that it might make things worse depending on what is causing the stray current/voltage.
ERICO. 5/8 in. x 8 ft. Copper Ground Rod.
Internet #202195738
Model #615880UPC
Store SKU #687693
$20.94
ERICO copper-bonded ground rods are the highest quality ground rods available today.
We use a unique manufacturing process, which includes drawing the steel rod to size before the copper bonding process begins.
This results in a straighter, harder steel core, making installation easier.
ERICO uses a continuous electro-plating process over the steel core that results in a permanent molecular bond that provides decades of reliable performance.
Our state-of-the-art ISO registered manufacturing facility provides a consistent, high-quality finished product that is used in millions of installations around the world.
99.9% pure electrolytic copper coating
Molecular bond to nickel-sealed high strength steel core
Rods have a high carbon steel core and tip that provide superior strength when driving
Copper coating will not crack when bent or tear when driven
Minimum copper coating of 10 mils on rods listed to UL- 467
ERICO name, length, diameter and part number is roll-stamped within 12" (304,8 mm) of chamfered end
UL logo and control number where applicable stamped on each rod for easy inspection after installation
ERICO 5/8 in. x 8 ft. Copper Grounding Bar Rod 615880UPC - The Home Depot
Protect your home and family from electrical shock with this ERITECH Copper Ground Rod. UL certified product for added protection.www.homedepot.com
How deep should you place the rods? How do you know if this will work or make it worse? Did you do some kind of ground study?
It's an untested hypothesis.
It's something someone might want to try based on their own research and reasons.
In other words, there is no basis to recommend this.
The person who decides to try it would be the test case.
It's their choice and their risk.
It's easier than tearing out a deck and replacing the deck.
I would want an engineer to review and approve the design before anyone chose to do this.
It's an untested hypothesis.
It's something someone might want to try based on their own research and reasons.
In other words, there is no basis to recommend this.
The person who decides to try it would be the test case.
It's their choice and their risk.
It's easier than tearing out a deck and replacing the deck.
I would want an engineer to review and approve the design before anyone chose to do this.