Stenner Pump Controller/Automation

[Flying Tivo]

As far as i know, the brains of the iPh is in the control box, the bus relays on the control box so the iph know when to dose(with SWG not generating). The ET bus does not tell the iph to dose, probably could know its dosing but not coded/implemented in the ET(dont have IC).

 

[jonpcar]

I think it's an uphill battle that will end in defeat to try and find a way to control your %'s on your existing intelliph. From all the comments (and the lack of comments on the Github site), it's a deadend, IMO.

But frankly, I am disappointed that all the IntelliPH does is dose acid gradually by injecting it repeatedly for less than a minute while the pump is running.. That doesn't make sense to me because I'm one who will run their pump at odd hours: if I need skimming....I'm lazy, if I want to run my IFCS (debris in bottom of pool), etc. The intellipH is going to be injecting acid even when I don't necessarily need it. It's an enabled timer with a scale mechanism.

Also it's not clear to me that you really get to know your pool's seasonal acid requirements. It seems much simpler to characterize how much acid my pool needs, and then to dose that each day independent of the pool pump (either gradually or in a glump, which is how most Stenner people do it). Acid needs change over the seasons, at least from what I hear (haha). Prior to this season, I have kept no records, so I have no clue what those requirements are for my pool. But it sure would be nice to have that data and then use that "daily volume" requirement as a starting basis for injection.

the bus relays on the control box so the iph knows when to dose(with SWG not generating)

I guess the one thing that the intellipH does that I did not realize until this post by Felipe, is that it coordinates dosing of acid to make sure it is NOT (edit, I forgot the word NOT-thanks CMC) done while the SWG is generating chlorine. Felipe,, is this a correct interpretation? I have always wondered how/if people installing Stenners who have SWGs deal with this. I don't think anyone does...and could that be a problem? For people that have two Stenner pumps (chlorine & acid) like myself, they usually insure that both don't turn on at the same time.

 

[cmc0619]

Jim,
Okay, that makes total sense to me now...
You realize of course, that you just armed and launched an AIM-9 at my idea/assumption that I had consistent 24Vdc available to me in the Load Center. SPLASH ONE.
But also, you probably just saved me who knows how much $ in the cost of parts fried and countless donations to the household "cuss" jar. So thanks much!!

Moving on, I guess I could just try to rob some AC power from either the System Transformer (24Vac or 18Vac output leads) or the IntelliChlor Transformer (24Vac output lead) and use some sort of rectifier? or AC/DC converter, as an example, something like these. Thoughts? You know a lot more about electronics than I. Is this reasonable?

Buck converter would do the trick off that 7A DC line. The thing to test would be when voltage drops while SWG is on does it affect the output of the buck converter.

 

[cmc0619]

View attachment 137720

Jon,
This is the 2nd time I've sat here marveling at your relay setups. Your relay logic game is on point!

 

[cmc0619]

I guess the one thing that the intellipH does that I did not realize until this post by Felipe, is that it coordinates dosing of acid to make sure it is done while the SWG is generating chlorine. Felipe,, is this a correct interpretation? I have always wondered how/if people installing Stenners who have SWGs deal with this. I don't think anyone does...and could that be a problem? For people that have two Stenner pumps (chlorine & acid) like myself, they usually insure that both don't turn on at the same time.

I think I read it's the opposite. The three criteria are Pump is running, SWG is off, and the system is not in SPA mode.

 

[cmc0619]

Cliff, now I think you might be on to something here..

Let me see if I got this. So in other words, ditch the ipH controller and then run 24v power directly from a pi relay to the pump. Hmm, but the Raspi is on my desk (currently anyway) and once I get the last of my parts and pieces, the Raspi will be connected to the 485 bus on the IntellliCenter. I think what you are pointing out would require the pi to be located at the pad. Initially, I had considered mounting it in the low voltage compartment of the IntelliCenter load center. That is still doable once things are ironed out I guess, but then I need to communicate with it via ip from my desktop.

Man cannot live on one pi alone.

If we're talking custom controller route this might do the trick for your compartment. Then you just communicate with it from another pi in your house using something like MQTT. There are also web controlled relays that you just send a GET request from a central computer (or phone app) to make it operate.

Pi Zero-WH (wireless with header) $15. Relay hat for mini Pi Zero. $10-15. It's about the footprint of three quarters. I don't solder (well I do but badly), everything I post is usually solderless. You can get these even cheaper if you're handy with an iron

 

[MyAZPool]

As far as i know, the brains of the iPh is in the control box, the bus relays on the control box so the iph know when to dose(with SWG not generating). The ET bus does not tell the iph to dose, probably could know its dosing but not coded/implemented in the ET(dont have IC).

Felipe,
Here is what I have been able to find out on this topic (this is all conjecture of course). No one can really say for sure but facts obtained by others, do point in this direction.
1. The ipH listens on the bus but does not transmit or send out any packets.
2. Apparently, the ipH is listening on the bus for certain packets transmitted by the IntelliChlor.
3. It's thought that those packets that it is listening for, are ones that indicated that the IntelliChlor is operating normally.
4. If the water temp is too cold, cell is dead, no flow, whatever, then apparently the IntelliChlor does not transmit the correct packets or sequence of packets on the bus and hence, the ipH will not operate in auto mode.

Even so, and if all of the above is true, of course the ipH is still is still capable of allowing for manual dosing, so long as the user initiates that at the ipH controller and there is power being delivered to the IC (I think). I may go out today and remove the IC-60 cannon plug from the ipH controller and see what I can determine.

Thanks!!

 

[MyAZPool]

Jon...
Just a few clarifications and comments

But frankly, I am disappointed that all the IntelliPH does is dose acid gradually by injecting it repeatedly for less than a minute while the pump is running.. That doesn't make sense to me because I'm one who will run their pump at odd hours: if I need skimming....I'm lazy, if I want to run my IFCS (debris in bottom of pool), etc. The intellipH is going to be injecting acid even when I don't necessarily need it. It's an enabled timer with a scale mechanism.

Right, but that is the whole idea of the graduated increment setting (percentage). If you know you need about "x" amount of MA per day, the percentage setting is based on how long the filter pump is running. For example, if your pump operates 24x7, then a user's percentage setting might be 20% lets say. But if another user only runs his filter pump for say 8 hours a day, then his percentage setting might be 60%. I have pretty much honed what percentage setting I need for the various seasons of the year. When I check pH, if it is say .1 high, then I back the ipH off about 5%. Similarly if it is .1 low, then an increase of 5% is in order. All of this is based on the daily filter pump schedule. Since I take advantage of SRP's "Time of Use Plan", My filter pump has 3 to 4 different start/stop cycles per day (depending on the time of year). Some cycles skim and others run the cleaner.

It's an enabled timer with a scale mechanism.

Exactly!!! Best summary-of-operation that I've seen yet.

Also it's not clear to me that you really get to know your pool's seasonal acid requirements. It seems much simpler to characterize how much acid my pool needs, and then to dose that each day independent of the pool pump (either gradually or in a glump, which is how most Stenner people do it). Acid needs change over the seasons, at least from what I hear (haha). Prior to this season, I have kept no records, so I have no clue what those requirements are for my pool. But it sure would be nice to have that data and then use that "daily volume" requirement as a starting basis for injection.

That is where Pool Math really comes in handy. Every time I take a pH reading, it's recorded in the app. Every time I make a change to the % setting of the ipH, it's recorded in the note section of Pool Math. Every time I fill up the tank, again recorded. Over time, you can take those numbers, plug into a spreadsheet, graph and after a year, you can then almost set your watch to when you need to increase or decrease the percentage setting throughout the seasons and when your tank will be about ready for a refill.

I guess the one thing that the intellipH does that I did not realize until this post by Felipe, is that it coordinates dosing of acid to make sure it is NOT (edit, I forgot the word NOT-thanks CMC) done while the SWG is generating chlorine. Felipe,, is this a correct interpretation? I have always wondered how/if people installing Stenners who have SWGs deal with this. I don't think anyone does...and could that be a problem? For people that have two Stenner pumps (chlorine & acid) like myself, they usually insure that both don't turn on at the same time.

Actually not quite true (at least in my case).
1. The ipH will NOT dose (in auto mode) if the IntelliChlor is NOT fully functioning (see my comments in post # 47 above).
2. The "acid injection tap" in the plumbing is located approximately 15" prior to my salt cell. This is exactly how it is supposed to be set up. This creates an added benefit of introducing small (and 50% diluted) MA across the IntelliChlor cell blades. Since diluted MA is the approved method of removing calcium deposits from the cell blades anyway, I am not only dosing my pool with acid of course but keeping the cell blades of the SWCG clean at the same time. My ipH was been operational for approximately 17 months. I just checked the cell blades about two months ago and they appear to be as clean as the day it was installed.

Now, granted, I'm using an IC-60 for a 21K gallon pool, so that cell does not work very hard, even in the brutal months (highest I think I have ever run the IC-60 is about 40%), so this also contributes to the cell blades staying cleaner than if I was running say an IC-40. Sorry, got a little off track there.

Point here is that, for ipH auto mode to function, the IntelliChlor SWCG MUST be operational at the same time.

r.

 

[MyAZPool]

I think I read it's the opposite. The three criteria are Pump is running, SWG is off, and the system is not in SPA mode.

No, not really. For ipH "Auto Mode" -
1. Filter pump running.
2. SWCG fully operational.
3. Not in Spa Mode.

For ipH "Manual Mode" acid dosing 1. and 3. of course but - Although the SWCG must have power, ,manual dosing does not require the cell to be producing chlorine (cold water, bad temp/flow sensor, bad cell, etc.)
r.

 

[MyAZPool]

Man cannot live on one pi alone.

If we're talking custom controller route this might do the trick for your compartment. Then you just communicate with it from another pi in your house using something like MQTT. There are also web controlled relays that you just send a GET request from a central computer (or phone app) to make it operate.

Pi Zero-WH (wireless with header) $15. Relay hat for mini Pi Zero. $10-15. It's about the footprint of three quarters. I don't solder (well I do but badly), everything I post is usually solderless. You can get these even cheaper if you're handy with an iron
View attachment 137738

ANOTHER PI??? Where will it all end? lol... Okay, I see where you are going with this. This definitely has some promise. I have some "sorting-out" to do and lot's of initial testing. At least the 3B is pretty cheap now.
Thanks Cliff!!!
r.
EDIT. I'm pretty sure I will need to add a good heat sink/fan combo for any Raspi that sits out in that panel. But I don't know for sure.

 

[cmc0619]

No, not really. For ipH "Auto Mode" -
1. Filter pump running.
2. SWCG fully operational.
3. Not in Spa Mode.

For ipH "Manual Mode" acid dosing 1. and 3. of course but - Although the SWCG must have power, ,manual dosing does not require the cell to be producing chlorine (cold water, bad temp/flow sensor, bad cell, etc.)
r.

I must've read that wrong, I stand corrected!

ANOTHER PI??? Where will it all end? lol... Okay, I see where you are going with this. This definitely has some promise. I have some "sorting-out" to do and lot's of initial testing. At least the 3B is pretty cheap now.
Thanks Cliff!!!
r.
EDIT. I'm pretty sure I will need to add a good heat sink/fan combo for any Raspi that sits out in that panel. But I don't know for sure.

I'm convinced you can never have too much raspberry pi! The 4's are pretty susceptible to heat issues but for the most part, they'll just throttle. A pi 3B or Pi 0 would most likely run ok even in those hot AZ summers I miss so much. I tried running the code from the Intellicenter firmware on my pi and it worked, they're the same CPU, so whatever you have for cooling in your Intellicenter (aircooled I'm guessing) would probably be the same in a pi.

 

[MyAZPool]

Cliff,

I must've read that wrong, I stand corrected!

No worries. I wanted to be 100% sure I was correct, so I did a little "independent" testing of my own just now, for curiosity sake.

Here is what I did and what I found out.
1. Killed the two breakers (pump/system), at the panel.
2. Unplugged the IC-60 cell cannon plug from the bottom of the ipH controller.
3. Energized the breakers and initiated a macro that energizes the Filter Pump relay and delivers power to the ipH controller.
4. The ipH controller came alive and immediately began it's 60 minute countdown (I was surprised to even see that).
5. At the completion of the 60 minute countdown timer, the ipH controller status screen then read: Checking Cell.
6. After about 3 or 4 seconds, the display read: Cell Not Ready or Off. (btw, this is the same message I get when the pool water temp is too low for the IC-60 to operate. In the winter when I want to dose from the ipH, I have to go into a manual dose mode on the controller and dose that way. It's essentially an "override" function.
7. Then it immediately went back into a new 60 minute countdown mode.

So, it's confirmed for sure. The ipH will NOT operate in "Auto" mode without an operating IntelliChlor. It apparently looks for some sort of packet or signal, probably from the IntelliChlor Controller Circuit Board. I assume this because others have reported that the ipH listens on the bus but does not send out any packets.

I'm convinced you can never have too much raspberry pi!

I can tell...lol...

The 4's are pretty susceptible to heat issues but for the most part, they'll just throttle. A pi 3B or Pi 0 would most likely run ok even in those hot AZ summers I miss so much. I tried running the code from the Intellicenter firmware on my pi and it worked, they're the same CPU, so whatever you have for cooling in your Intellicenter (aircooled I'm guessing) would probably be the same in a pi.

Great info... Cliff, thanks! That was sort of was my assumptions as well. I can keep the 4B right here on the desk (sort of a master pi, if you will) and if I end up wanting/needing a pi at the panel, I'll get a pi that doesn't generate so much heat (slave pi).
As always, I appreciate all of the insight and advice. When all of this "add-on" automation gets ironed out etc., I'm going to enjoy those "cookies"... (And Barry White and Marvin Gaye too!)
Thanks again and stay safe....
r..

 

[Katodude]

Hey!! Get your own cheesy macros and playlists!!

 

[MyAZPool]

Hey!! Get your own cheesy macros and playlists!!

 

[Flying Tivo]

I assume this because others have reported that the ipH listens on the bus but does not send out any packets.

Since the brains of the iPh is quite elaborate, you can make an assumption that if it listens to the bus, quite certain that it can transmit also. My best guess is that the ET/IC does not have coding to listen to the iph and make corresponding adjustments. That is absurd, but that is Pentairs middle name anyways.

I agree on the rules of the iph, that is also what i have observed. Will get you the voltage numbers tomorrow, sorry.

 

[Flying Tivo]

Felipe,, is this a correct interpretation? I have always wondered how/if people installing Stenners who have SWGs deal with this. I don't think anyone does...and could that be a problem?

Yes it is, but just recently started noticing fluctuations on my SWG readings between the days i dose acid and the ones i dont. So it surley
messes up the salt readings a little, but as long as the cell does not flash red its ok with me. Dont know the long term effects of this. Many want to have their injectors before the SWG for the added benefit of cleaning the cell, but if you are worried you can move your injection point after the cell. I just cleaned my cell with acid after 2 years of use, without the injector. So no big deal if its before or after.

 

[Flying Tivo]

New discovery! I dont usually mess with the panel at the ET8. Wanted to manual dose some acid today, turn my stopwatch on the iphone on and press my Aux1 button(configured as Iph) at the 25sec mark the ET8 shuts off Aux1. Thought this was a flukebut repeated itself on the second try. So i can only imagine that if you configure that feature as IPh it has an auto shut off. To notice i did not have the ET in service mode. I will try that in 2 day more since i did not want to add more acid.

 

[MyAZPool]

Felipe,
You,ll have to excuse me. At times, I'm a little dense.. lol... I'm not following along with your findings.. Can you walk me through this a bit more?
Thanks..
r.

 

[Flying Tivo]

Maybe my Mexican brain is not translating well enough . Today i wanted to manually dose some acid(you already know my setup) and pressed the AUX1 button on the ET panel. I wanted to time the dosing with my iphone stopwatch since i know the amount in 60sec. After running for 25 sec the ET stoped/turned off my Aux1 relay. I confirmed this 2 times. Im going to try to change my feature name from Intelliph to something else and recheck if the 25 sec shutoff works(it shoudnt) since i have other features. My best guess is. that if you name the feature intelliph, it has a safety timer cutoff. Which is Awsome if you wire directly without the control box or for the stenner guys with an ET. Will keep testing and will open up a new thread once i have more info.

 

[MyAZPool]

Maybe my Mexican brain is not translating well enough . Today i wanted to manually dose some acid(you already know my setup) and pressed the AUX1 button on the ET panel. I wanted to time the dosing with my iphone stopwatch since i know the amount in 60sec. After running for 25 sec the ET stoped/turned off my Aux1 relay. I confirmed this 2 times. Im going to try to change my feature name from Intelliph to something else and recheck if the 25 sec shutoff works(it shoudnt) since i have other features. My best guess is. that if you name the feature intelliph, it has a safety timer cutoff. Which is Awsome if you wire directly without the control box or for the stenner guys with an ET. Will keep testing and will open up a new thread once i have more info.

Yes. Please let us know what you come up with. I really don't think those automation panels are that smart but maybe you are on to something.
Thanks..
r..