Startup pool chemicals

[ajw22]

Builders often have different ideas about startup chemistry than the plaster manufacturer. There are different ways of doing plaster startup and most of them work out fine.

Pebbletec company recommends really low pH levels for first 28 days. My pool builder instructions say differently 7.4-7.8).

We prefer higher pH and TA that keeps the CSI positive.

The normal CSI guidelines are not applicable to new plaster finishes under 30 days old. It is actually necessary, to achieve a smooth and dense surface, to have about a +0.5 CSI during the first 30 days. This is because the plaster (cement paste) surface contains about 20% calcium hydroxide, which is somewhat soluble in balanced and slightly positive CSI water and can be dissolved away. The plaster surface needs to be "carbonated" before the CSI should be lowered to the acceptable and balanced range. And that generally is achieved during the first month under balanced water.

Of note, my pool builder said I should have my suction side cleaner (that has wheels) going from day 1. Pebbletec instructions say no.

From Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

Why no wheeled cleaner for first 30 days? Plaster is sufficiently hard once the pool is full of water. Pool cleaners can be installed and utilized after about two days if there is no plaster dust forming. The reason that tracks develop is usually from plaster dust being "packed down" by the pool cleaner wheels and then not removed by brushing. So it can look like an "indention" (and discolored) but it is not an indention. Brushing afterwards can help prevent the plaster dust from sticking on the plaster.

Pool builder said pump needed running for first 48 hours continuously, pebbletec instructions say 5 days.

Really you should run the pump continuously until you no longer see plaster dust when doing your daily brushing. That could be 48 hours or 5 days or longer.

Running the pump continuously is all about getting the plaster dust filtered out of the water and not letting it settle on pool surfaces.

Not sure what to do.

Understand why you are being told to do things and it should become clearer what to do.

 

[Redsurprise]

What does plaster dust look like?

My CSI had been negative and I have been told
Here in this forum that it is fine.

This is why I am so confused.

My levels today were
:

pH- 7.8
FC- 5
CH: 150
ALk- 70
CYA- 50
CSI- -0.47

My CSI has been negative the whole time, a litttle more than half way through the 28 days. So is my finish going to be destroyed and rough now? I need help and am getting lots of varied guidance.

 

[Redsurprise]

It is actually necessary, to achieve a smooth and dense surface, to have about a +0.5 CSI during the first 30 days.

So how do I raise my CSI? I have been negative this entire time and told I was good and didn’t need to adjust anything? Is my finish going to be ruined? Can I do anything to salvage this situation?

 

[Redsurprise]

From reading the CSI article on this site it seems I might raise my CSI to optimal level during curing process by increasing my calcium hardness (which had been extremely low). Although I got it to 150 finally which pebble tech says is okay on low end for first 28 days, but whenever I suggest to Increase it, I am cautioned. Leslie’s pool (which I know everyone here hates and doesn’t trust) said to add 15 pounds of the calcium . I only added half per recommendations on those forums which brought CH from 75 to 150.

Should I add anymore during curing process?

 

[ajw22]

So how do I raise my CSI?

There is the Bicarb Startup for situations like yours.

A Bicarb Start-up guide for TFP members

It is an unfortunate fact that most tap water used to fill swimming pools is often soft, aggressive, and somewhat harmful to a new plaster surface. Therefore, in order to not damage a new plaster surface, the tap water needs to be “balanced” (meaning for new plaster, the CSI should be at least...

www.troublefreepool.com

The Best Plaster Pool Startup

Additional clarifications on the Bicarb (or Positive CSI) Startup. THE BEST PLASTER POOL START UP How a startup program deals with and prevents the detrimental process of “plaster dust” forming in newly plaster pools is the key in helping to preserve a quality plaster finish that will last 20+...

www.troublefreepool.com

I have been negative this entire time and told I was good and didn’t need to adjust anything?

You are good, just not great.

Is my finish going to be ruined?

No.

Can I do anything to salvage this situation?

Nothing to salvage. Your plaster will be fine.

You can raise your TA now to 250-300 to raise your CSI. There are diminishing benefits to the startup as the days go by. With a week or two in I am not sure it is worth the trouble.

Read what is involved in the bicarb statup and we can discuss.

You can lower your TA without draining the pool whereas if you increase your calcium you set yourself up to need to drain the pool eventually in your area.

 

[ajw22]

What does plaster dust look like?

Looks like dust in the water when you brush.

You have been brushing the pool daily?

My CSI has been negative the whole time, a litttle more than half way through the 28 days.

There are diminishing benefits as the days go on.

So is my finish going to be destroyed and rough now?

No. The differences in startup are not going to be visible to you.

 

[ajw22]

In reviewing this thread everyone gave you the proper advice at the time…

Startup pool chemicals

So my pool finally is finished but pool builder didn’t supply me with enough info in pool crash course to properly run my pool. I am supposed to check the levels days 2-4 (pH, calcium and chlorine) and adjust accordingly. For calcium it doesn’t specify what level is good and what level I do if...

www.troublefreepool.com

You started off on the wrong foot without the proper startup information and tools before the pool was filled.

It looks like you asked for help a few days after water was added. Then it took a few days to get you pointed in the right direction with testing and a test kit.

Now we are here and your plaster startup will be ok whichever way you decide to go. Plaster can stand a lot of startup abuse and you have all the pebble material. We have seen lots worse startup processes by builders.

 

[duraleigh]

+1 what ajw22 said

 

[Redsurprise]

Looks like dust in the water when you brush.

You have been brushing the pool daily?



There are diminishing benefits as the days go on.




No. The differences in startup are not going to be visible to you.

I have been brushing daily, most days twice. It doesn’t seem dusty when I brush.

What do people recommend I do for the finish. I feel lost and in way over my head with this and ready to call a pool service. Checked my levels today and pH was up over 8 again (8.1 per pen and per block, not quite 8.2 but definitely more than 7.8). Not sure if it was because of the rain we had or not. I added a pint of muriatic acid and think I added too much. Because my numbers are this now:

FC- 4.5
Alk- 70
CH- 150
CYA- 40
pH 7.3 (or 7.4) . I can’t tell. Color on block looks like in between the 7.2 and 7.5. My apera pen says 7.4. Test strips make it seem like it is under 7.
CSI with the 7.3 pH is -0.94

Suggestions welcomed as to what I should do 2.5 weeks into the curing process that will be best for the pebble finish given my current numbers .

I can’t really use pool math as it doesn’t know my pool is new with curing pebble/plaster.

I have attached the photo of the pH cube.

 

[mknauss]

The effect of the 16 oz of acid was about right.

At this point, add the rest of the calcium. You are consumed by concern of the plaster. It is fine, but to make you feel better, add the calcium. If not using softened water over summer for make up water, you will just be draining the pool sooner.

 

[ajw22]

Add your calcium and keep your pH on the high side. Nothing bad is going to happen right now with pH of 8.0 to 8.2. Don’t lower your pH below 7.6 and 7.8 is better.

Don’t expect a Pool Service to know more about this then you do.

 

[Redsurprise]

Add your calcium and keep your pH on the high side. Nothing bad is going to happen right now with pH of 8.0 to 8.2. Don’t lower your pH below 7.6 and 7.8 is better.

Don’t expect a Pool Service to know more about this than you do.

If the pebble first 28 day instructions say i should have a low pH and I want a positive CSI, why then do you recommend the high pH of 8? I am just trying to understand the rationale and do what’s best for the pool.

I am concerned about the pebble only because I can’t afford to get a new interior finish if it doesn’t cure correctly and want to have a nice pool. And I can’t really afford a pool service right now either with out cutting back on other stuff.

I appreciate all of the help.

Will the calcium I add raise the pH?

When can I trust pool math and just do what it says? Pool math tells me to add all sorts of things

 

[Redsurprise]

Here are the pebble instructions https://pebbletec.com/wp-content/up...nance-with-Checklist-All-Finishes-1.20.22.pdf

 

[ajw22]

If the pebble first 28 day instructions say i should have a low pH and I want a positive CSI, why then do you recommend the high pH of 8?

You have to decide who you want to follow - pebbletechs advice or TFP. We have a different way of doing startup then pebbletech.

If you want to follow pebbletech then go ahead and you will be fine. You came here asking questions because their process is difficult to maintain.

If you want to follow our recommendations we think you will end up being better off.

What you should not do it mix the two. That just creates confusion.

Higher pH gives you higher CSI. We think that is important. It seems PebbleTech does not. If you have questions about PebbleTechs low pH I suggest you ask them.

I am just trying to understand the rationale and do what’s best for the pool.

You have many links in posts above giving you the science behind TFPs recommendations…

Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I am concerned about the pebble only because I can’t afford to get a new interior finish if it doesn’t cure correctly and want to have a nice pool.

You are now almost 3 weeks into the curing and most of it is done.

Does your pool look like it is a nice pool?

And I can’t really afford a pool service right now either with out cutting back on other stuff.

You’re the one who mentioned calling a Pool Service. I don’t know why you would expect them to know more then you.

Will the calcium I add raise the pH?

No, calcium will raise the calcium and not effect your pH.

Your pH will rise naturally. Leave it alone and let it rise.

When can I trust pool math and just do what it says?

Never.

PoolMath gives you suggestions to consider. You need to determine if they are appropriate for your pool.

For example, PoolMath does not know the pool is in AZ and has high CH fill water. PoolMath gives the same suggestion for you in AZ and a pool in NY with very different fill water chemistry. Similarly PoolMath does not know your pool gets much stonger sun in AZ then the pool in NY.

Pool math tells me to add all sorts of things

And you need to learn which of them is applicable to your pool.

Pool Care Basics Archives

Your one-stop shop for all things TFP to include: ABCs of Water Chemistry, Recommended Chemicals/Levels, Test Kits, Troubleshooting, and much more!

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Redsurprise]

how do I know what is applicable to my pool ? And what is the point of using pool math then if pool math doesn’t account for someone’s pool specifics (sun,
Water hardness) Why does this forum always ask about the pool math if pool math can’t be trusted? Why even have pool math app?

I tested my tap water (that doesn’t have a softener) Beautiful and CH was less than 75.

my pool looks okay I guess, but I don’t know what the surface feels like on one’s feet given winter and too cold to go in water. The color doesn’t look as nice as the photos of the of what pebble finish I saw when selected.

Why are we telling me to add the calcium ? I was told not to add anymore calcium as I will have super high CH later. Calcium at 150-250 which
Per the pebbletech instructions is actually okay.

So should I add anything based on the reading I gave you? If my pH is too low now (7.3 or 7.4), I just let it ride and it will go up on own? What will happen to my finish from current levels? How often do I need to check my levels? My first bottle of the CYA reagent is almost gone.

How do I know when to add anything if pool math, pool store can’t be followed due to inaccurate testing (Leslie’s) and pool math not knowing my pool?

 

[PoolAdmiral]

What AJW22 said. I’m pretty new here too. These guys helped answer some of my questions about chemical balancing 3 months ago when my pool was filled. Not once was I worried about the pebbletec plaster or its warranty. I followed the TFP method and brushed twice daily. Plaster dust is almost invisible and as long as your pool is balanced and the pump running, you won’t notice the plaster dust because your Filter is doing its job. And after a few short months, I’m happy to say that my pool finish looks good with no issues.

I’ll say it because it seems that no one here has said it. But you sound scared. All the help the members here have provided is invaluable information and if you decide to hire a “Pool guy” because you feel you can’t trust the information, you’ll soon realize that Paid pool service ain’t what you think it is. Unless you’re willing to pay lots of $$$ for more detailed service, take the advise given here because you’ll quickly see that it’s better for your pool in the Long run.

One final piece of advise: Trust the TFP method and don’t be scared of the process.

 

[midlifecrisis]

When you are measuring lengths for a project or weighing items, I am certain that you use either imperial or metric, but not both. You do this to endure consistency because the same scale is critical to achieving the desired outcome. It is okay to use one or the other. You'll get the same results either way. With that said, you absolutely must decide whether you pick your plaster manufacture's process or TFPs recommendations. JUST DON'T MIX BOTH. We can't make that choice for you. Your pool, your money, your choice. As was mentioned by PoolAadmiral, you seem are scared. I don't think you're scared; you are. I can see it in your words. We are all pool owners (or work in the industry). That's we are here and this site, in case you haven't noticed is not ad supported. Any suggestions made here are made because thousands of people have come together to care for what is likely their second largest investment. Nobody here has vested interest in giving you bad advice. None.

Again, pick on set of protocols and go with them. Whatever you choose, stick with it. Personally, I'm here for a reason. I've seen the recommendations from the pool industry, done my research and decided that this site gives me the absolute best chance at being a happy, successful pool owner. You have to make your choices. It's your pool.

Lastly, as is mentioned, you're about 21 ish days through a 28-day process. I'm not a math dude, but anything you do at this point is likely to have minimal to no impact at all on your plaster at this point. Prepare to enjoy your pool instead of fretting over it. That is why you bought it.

 

[Bperry]

Why are we telling me to add the calcium ? I was told not to add anymore calcium as I will have super high CH later. Calcium at 150-250 which
Per the pebbletech instructions is actually okay.

Marty said that because it sounds like you’re freaking out about what to do. Higher calcium won’t harm anything and slight lower calcium isn’t likely to harm anything either. He lives in an area with really high calcium hardness in the water and lots of heat so over time. with all the evaporation from the sun will mean he has to add lots of high calcium fill water which will make his pool calcium levels get very high. Most people in your area have a similar issue, but maybe you don’t.

The point is that you’re going to need to learn what your pool needs in your special location. There will be some variations from my pool, and Marty’s pool, and everyone else’s pool but overall fairly similar. Use pool math as tool to guide you in learning what your pool needs, but don’t become a slave to a computer app. (If you’ve seen “the terminator” movie, that kinda thing doesn’t end well for humanity. )

Testing frequency:
You just need start out testing FC and pH every day or two. All the rest can be monthly (or weekly if the pool is getting lots of use). Once you’ve learned your pool, you can adjust the testing frequency as needed.

Your pH will rise daily for a while so when it does, just add a bit of acid to lower it a little. You’ve learned how much it takes to go from 8.1 to 7.4. So try half as much next time.

 

[Redsurprise]

Marty said that because it sounds like you’re freaking out about what to do. Higher calcium won’t harm anything and slight lower calcium isn’t likely to harm anything either. He lives in an area with really high calcium hardness in the water and lots of heat so over time. with all the evaporation from the sun will mean he has to add lots of high calcium fill water which will make his pool calcium levels get very high. Most people in your area have a similar issue, but maybe you don’t.

The point is that you’re going to need to learn what your pool needs in your special location. There will be some variations from my pool, and Marty’s pool, and everyone else’s pool but overall fairly similar. Use pool math as tool to guide you in learning what your pool needs, but don’t become a slave to a computer app. (If you’ve seen “the terminator” movie, that kinda thing doesn’t end well for humanity. )

Testing frequency:
You just need start out testing FC and pH every day or two. All the rest can be monthly (or weekly if the pool is getting lots of use). Once you’ve learned your pool, you can adjust the testing frequency as needed.

Your pH will rise daily for a while so when it does, just add a bit of acid to lower it a little. You’ve learned how much it takes to go from 8.1 to 7.4. So try half as much next time.

Thanks all of you for the responses. I am freaking out because this pool was a huge purchase for me and i dont want a disaster on my hands as I can’t afford it.

I want to follow the TFP method. So going forward from this point, do I just leave my pH where it is right now and let it come up by itself, or should I add something to raise it above 7.6?

If 150 is okay for CH and having it low
won’t hurt anything, at what point do I want to add some calcium to bring it higher if it doesn’t come up on its own? I am not sure if my water has high calcium. When I got my kit a week after the pool was filled, my calcium level was like 50 in my pool. And when I tested the tap water for my house it was about the same . Does that mean my water doesn’t have high calcium? Is calcium level of my fill/top off water likely to change?

The pool math app says I need to add a lot of things. How do I know what to add? Right now based on last night’s numbers it says to add 1 lb, 1oz borax (20 mule) to bring pH up.

It says to add stabilizer to bring up CYA

For my CSI, pool math gives a warning for my -0.94 level And says less than -0.6 suggests corrosion is likely for plaster pools. Anything I can/should to do fix this?

 

[Bperry]

Thanks all of you for the responses. I am freaking out because this pool was a huge purchase for me and i dont want a disaster on my hands as I can’t afford it.

I want to follow the TFP method. So going forward from this point, do I just leave my pH where it is right now and let it come up by itself, or should I add something to raise it above 7.6?

If 150 is okay for CH and having it low
won’t hurt anything, at what point do I want to add some calcium to bring it higher if it doesn’t come up on its own? I am not sure if my water has high calcium. When I got my kit a week after the pool was filled, my calcium level was like 50 in my pool. And when I tested the tap water for my house it was about the same . Does that mean my water doesn’t have high calcium? Is calcium level of my fill/top off water likely to change?

The pool math app says I need to add a lot of things. How do I know what to add? Right now based on last night’s numbers it says to add 1 lb, 1oz borax (20 mule) to bring pH up.

It says to add stabilizer to bring up CYA

For my CSI, pool math gives a warning for my -0.94 level And says less than -0.6 suggests corrosion is likely for plaster pools. Anything I can/should to do fix this?

Post up here what all the current test results from your kit for specific advice. Don’t freak out. Go make yourself a big cup of coffee with some chocolate, a bit of cream and sugar… (insert Homer Simpson drooling meme here…) or some other beverage of your choice. Things will be fine!

Pool math isn’t telling you to add anything. Think of it like this: pool math is saying that IF, IF, IF,(you get my meaning here?) you want to change the pH to the target value set in the app, you can add 1.1lb of borax. That’s all it is. It’s not telling you that you SHOULD do anything. It’s just some software code that doesn’t know anything else. It’s only calculating the difference between your last test result and whatever is set as the “target” value. The target value is a generic one that works for more people than not.

For example: here’s my pool:

You can see my calcium level is higher than the pool math range (from two months ago). I purposefully raised it because I had new plaster installed right before winter and I knew I’d get a lot of water filling the pool and needing to be drained because of that which dilutes the calcium and I wanted to make sure it had enough calcium during that time. Pool math is simply telling me that -if I want- to lower the calcium level to the generic range, I’d need to do whatever it says if I clicked the warning message. It’s not telling me that I must do it or the pool will fall apart if I don’t. It’s only a tool for you to use to help calculate the quantities of things to add when YOU decide they need to be added.

So, what are the ideal levels? Here’s a link:

What Are My Ideal Pool Levels?

Use our tool to find ideal chemical levels for any swimming pool. Check TFP recommended levels on pH, free chlorine, cyanuric acid, and more.

www.troublefreepool.com

Notice that they are levels. The lower end of the range is just as good as the upper end of the range.
There is no perfect “ideal” numbers in pool water. The word “balanced” you hear some people use is super misleading because there’s no perfect balance of anything in water. All of the levels are always changing (some faster than others) and so your goal is to just relax (Did I mention the chocolate coffee?) test the water and see what is getting higher or lower than you desire and then tweak slowly it over time. If you stay on top of testing frequently, you’ll see very quickly how measurements change over time and learn to respond to what your pool is doing.
Don’t freak out!