Starting the OB process - Queen Creek

bdavis466

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Aug 4, 2014
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San Clemente, CA
This is a lot more practical and looks better in my opinion...


This is what I picture your existing design looking like just much smaller:


This is how you can make that cantilever less of an issue but it turns into a modern grotto (which look odd to me)...


Before you commit to anything I would highly suggest you find a pool with a 4' water feature and hear it running. It's insane how loud it is...that's fine for a party but for a relaxing evening - not so much...
 
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QC Pool Dreams

Active member
Sep 23, 2019
30
Queen Creek, Az
This is a lot more practical and looks better in my opinion...


This is what I picture your existing design looking like just much smaller:


This is how you can make that cantilever less of an issue but it turns into a modern grotto (which look odd to me)...


Before you commit to anything I would highly suggest you find a pool with a 4' water feature and hear it running. It's insane how loud it is...that's fine for a party but for a relaxing evening - not so much...
This is a lot more practical and looks better in my opinion...


This is what I picture your existing design looking like just much smaller:


This is how you can make that cantilever less of an issue but it turns into a modern grotto (which look odd to me)...


Before you commit to anything I would highly suggest you find a pool with a 4' water feature and hear it running. It's insane how loud it is...that's fine for a party but for a relaxing evening - not so much...
Here is the inspiration picture that I had seen but ultimately it was just built in sketchup without and specific design behind it, just looks...

1571677528004.png

1571677484016.png

The idea was for a modern grotto type vibe, maybe not as much of a cave look like that last picture but more something you could sit under than the first two. The noise level is probably a good point - this one pictured was an overflow style vs. a sheer descent but noise wise I would guess they would be the same which is why I had thought about doing the rain waterfall which is softer but again not sure how I would integrate that type of system in the overhanging ledge so maybe it is time for a redesign?

I would want it to be suitable for jumping off because Im sure the kids will want to do that so it needs to be safe for sure!
 

QC Pool Dreams

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Sep 23, 2019
30
Queen Creek, Az
Cantilevers generally should only extend 1/3 of the overall length. If you wanted an 18" overhang then you'd need 36" completely supported behind it. The wider the ledge, the thicker it will need to be.

This is especially important since people will more than likely be jumping off that ledge.

Is there an actual design for that feature or an inspiration picture? Or just born in SketchUp?
This makes sense, the overhang as modeled in the sketchup is probably longer than needed so I could shrink it back for sure based on this general rule - thanks for sharing that! The current plan would have had about 16" of back support with 16" overhang, so more 1:1 vs 2:1, so in the event that we moved forward with this type of design we can add more to the back but also shrink the front to something like 10" so it still goes over the front of the bench underneath it but minimizes the upsupported overhang.
 

jimmythegreek

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Agree with Brian on the noise and the overhang ratio. Notice in the pic you posted how deep the rear actually is with the sides actually holding alot of the mass as well as the back. I wasnt sure of your inspiration my comment on veneering is to cover the concrete with a veneer ie stone,tile,stucco,etc. Regardless its sketchy to be climbing up on a structure like that and jumping off. Most large waterfalls like that are neglected and get slippery/slimy, who goes up there to brush it? Figure out what materials you plan to use for finishes and in corporate them into it. I like the last picture Brian posted that's a timeless look and a great solution build wise with water placement and flow in addition to being able to control water volume and sound
 
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QC Pool Dreams

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Sep 23, 2019
30
Queen Creek, Az
Thank you guys for all the feedback! I had them add more support depth to the back wall of the grotto so there will be less unsupported weight on top and then I am working on a plan to incorporate the rainfall waterfall onto it rather than just flowing water off the top to reduce the noise so we'll see how that works out. It wont be a normal jumping spot but knowing kids, inevitably there will be someone jumping off it but without having the water flowing off the top of it there should be no slip risk so that was a great point there!

Here is the current rev (hopefully close to final) of the plans - do all the skimmer/returns/filter locations look correct to you guys?
1571951225135.png
 

bdavis466

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Aug 4, 2014
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San Clemente, CA
The return placement doesn't really make sense with the skimmer location. The skimmer should be located on the receiving end of the dominant wind direction. The returns should be placed so they direct the water in a circular motion towards the skimmer.

The way it's drawn will leave the pool water in a kung fu match with itself which makes the skimmer less effective/efficient.
 

QC Pool Dreams

Active member
Sep 23, 2019
30
Queen Creek, Az
The return placement doesn't really make sense with the skimmer location. The skimmer should be located on the receiving end of the dominant wind direction. The returns should be placed so they direct the water in a circular motion towards the skimmer.

The way it's drawn will leave the pool water in a kung fu match with itself which makes the skimmer less effective/efficient.
This is what I was concerned about as well, I'm no expert in this stuff but just learning from this forum things just didnt look right so thank you for that confirmation! I've been a bit worried about our draftsman that has been assigned to our pool, it seems like we are having far too many small issues just in getting the overall layout right and now little things with the plumbing that is making my confidence waiver. I would hate to sign off on the pool based on the layout looking correct so we can move fwd only to have rework/cost when things arent placed correctly causing engineering/permitting problems.
 

jimmythegreek

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If you have the file post it I'm sure brian will look it over better as will I. I would tweak the returns that's just standard placement not optimal. I would also add a second skimmer. Couple things I see. First I would ditch the main drains unless you get nice flush tops. I personally pet peeve shallower pools where my feet step on drain covers. That's just me but non pool people notice it too. Second is the step off the baja. 9" is max in my eyes on steps. The drop step is at -28 so that's a 10" step down. The next drop is to 3.5ft which is-42" that's 14" I only point that out as it's the only stairs you have for access. I'd tweak the baja to 16 or 17" for an 8 or 8.5 inch step and then split the bottom into 2 steps. I always think of kids with shorter legs and older people when I build. If it's hard to walk it in real life it's harder with water resistance. Normal building stairs target 7" riser heights. This also tweaks with actual water depths as there is no mention of water depth or coping depth you have an overhead plan and not a building plan showing side elevations which is what matters in the end
 

QC Pool Dreams

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Sep 23, 2019
30
Queen Creek, Az
Here is the actual pdf file if you guys want to look through it a bit more - there are still some items IVe asked them to tweak and I can add your feedback into those notes as well. You can ignore all their notes on door/window alarms, they added that on this last rev but those arent required in our town, we have the right locks on them though and will have a fence as well so my main focus is the pool at this point.
 

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QC Pool Dreams

Active member
Sep 23, 2019
30
Queen Creek, Az
The return placement doesn't really make sense with the skimmer location. The skimmer should be located on the receiving end of the dominant wind direction. The returns should be placed so they direct the water in a circular motion towards the skimmer.

The way it's drawn will leave the pool water in a kung fu match with itself which makes the skimmer less effective/efficient.
Given that the wind in our area (albeit lite at most times) comes from the East - should the skimmer be moved over to the side/corner where the AWL is currently listed or still on the top because of the bench but at the west end of the pool? Or maybe one on both top and bottom on that west side? Then maybe add a return where the current skimmer is located?

@jimmythegreek I will talk to them about the side elevation vs overhead as it relates to water depth, we certainly dont want the water depth less than 3.5' so that is a good call!
 

jimmythegreek

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You will lose 3 to 4 inches of water to center of skimmer so you want 45 to 46 inches finished plaster to bottom of coping. I'm on a phone I'll review the file on a PC and reply. Also just noticed this is a 6ft deep pool. Please don't ever let any kids jump off the top of the grotto they will hit the bottom easily
 

QC Pool Dreams

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Sep 23, 2019
30
Queen Creek, Az
The wind comes from the east and goes to the west? I would have thought the opposite.

AWL?
I tried to read an average wind map? lol not something Ive done before so maybe I got it wrong, this is what it showed and then said these were the "from" directions I thought?
1572206479999.png

@jimmythegreek that is one of the pending changes is for them to update to 6ft on the deep end but either way the goal would be for them to only jump on the short 2ft wall, not the grotto - but I know being that they are my kids, there will come a day when they jump on the taller so trying to plan appropriately!
 

bdavis466

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San Clemente, CA
The map I saw showed the predominant wind is out of the West and going east. The trouble with this though is there are a lot of local factors that can change it like other houses in your neighborhood and small hills that can shift the wind. Where did the leaves accumulate in the yard?
 

QC Pool Dreams

Active member
Sep 23, 2019
30
Queen Creek, Az
The map I saw showed the predominant wind is out of the West and going east. The trouble with this though is there are a lot of local factors that can change it like other houses in your neighborhood and small hills that can shift the wind. Where did the leaves accumulate in the yard?
I feel like this would make more sense being that we are on the west coast-ish but I dont know anything about weather so I was just guessing based on that wind chart I posted...the neighborhood is a brand new build so no one, including us, has any trees that are losing leaves yet. In general all the homes are so close together and the yards so small that the wind really isnt a major factor; outside of the monsoon/haboob season it seems like most leaves end up right under the tree they fell from in this general area.
 

bdavis466

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Aug 4, 2014
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San Clemente, CA
If you keep the skimmer where it is on the plan then the returns should be something like this:


This might work out best based off the W--->E wind that you most likely have. I changed the layout in the pool a little too...makes more sense to me but obviously I won't be the one spending any time in it:cry:

If you move the skimmer then this would simply things somewhat. Generally the builders like to have the spa and skimmer near each other with both as close as possible to the pool equipment since thats the bulk of the plumbing and reduces the trenching.

 

jimmythegreek

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My apologies im work swamped I just got back to ur thread. I couldn't have done better than what Brian posted the second picture is the ideal layout. No big deal for a small trench to the skimmer being further out and makes nice flow pattern. I also like the step addition the elevations make much more sense with that layout. Nice consultation Bdavis 👌