Spa pump backwashes when primary pump is off

[siberian]

I am mechanically competent and starting to learn my pool in our new home.

When I took it over it was a circa 1985 dumb pool using pentair and compool equipment. Since taking it over I have replaced the single-speed primary pump with an Intelliflow VSF, rebuilt my spa pump with a rebuild kit (it was leaking and injecting air), sorted out my DE filter cleaning schedule (I prefer to clean it vs backwash, its easier for me), replaced valve collars so my valves actually do what they are supposed to, and understand pretty well how the system as a whole fits together and where I can automate in the future.

My current problem is that if my primary pump (the VSF) is OFF and someone pushes the spa jet button (which engages the spa pump) I immediately get my DE backwashed to my spa. My questions are two-fold:

1) Why would this be happening? Why would the spa pump blow as backwash in this specific circumstance? Note that this happens regardless of valve configuration. If my valves are set to pool or spa circulation when the spa pump comes on with the VSF off, the system backwashes to the configured circulation output. Any insights with this minimal information?

2) The only fix I can think of right now is to put the spa pump on a relay linked to my VSF to prevent it from operating when VSF is off, but since I am just using the built-in keypad there is not really a way to mechanically automate this and I am not quite ready to go all in on a new automation system. Does the VSF have some internal pinout in that internal connector that might let me signal out to a relay? I've been meaning to put a multimeter on individual pins to check but maybe this group knows better.

Tx for any insights. I'm a learning newbie and really enjoy solving these little pool puzzles I get presented with. Excuse any bad terminology, still learning here.

 

[1poolman1]

I am mechanically competent and starting to learn my pool in our new home.

When I took it over it was a circa 1985 dumb pool using pentair and compool equipment. Since taking it over I have replaced the single-speed primary pump with an Intelliflow VSF, rebuilt my spa pump with a rebuild kit (it was leaking and injecting air), sorted out my DE filter cleaning schedule (I prefer to clean it vs backwash, its easier for me), replaced valve collars so my valves actually do what they are supposed to, and understand pretty well how the system as a whole fits together and where I can automate in the future.

My current problem is that if my primary pump (the VSF) is OFF and someone pushes the spa jet button (which engages the spa pump) I immediately get my DE backwashed to my spa. My questions are two-fold:

1) Why would this be happening? Why would the spa pump blow as backwash in this specific circumstance? Note that this happens regardless of valve configuration. If my valves are set to pool or spa circulation when the spa pump comes on with the VSF off, the system backwashes to the configured circulation output. Any insights with this minimal information?

2) The only fix I can think of right now is to put the spa pump on a relay linked to my VSF to prevent it from operating when VSF is off, but since I am just using the built-in keypad there is not really a way to mechanically automate this and I am not quite ready to go all in on a new automation system. Does the VSF have some internal pinout in that internal connector that might let me signal out to a relay? I've been meaning to put a multimeter on individual pins to check but maybe this group knows better.

Tx for any insights. I'm a learning newbie and really enjoy solving these little pool puzzles I get presented with. Excuse any bad terminology, still learning here.

Sounds like a plumbing issue. Is the spa pump on its own line? Picture would help.

 

[guinness]

Welcome to the forum!

Does the VSF have some internal pinout in that internal connector that might let me signal out to a relay?

The Intelliflo can only be controlled via serial communication (RS-485) which won't work w/ the older Compool. There is the Compool to EasyTouch Upgrade Kit which would allow that but as you already stated that's not something you're looking at right now. Assuming that you don't have the newer Intelliflo3?

 

[siberian]

Sounds like a plumbing issue. Is the spa pump on its own line? Picture would help.

Here is a picture, the plumbing eludes me on this as the spa pump (black pump on the left) is only piped to the spa which means it must be pushing pressure back through the spa intake and somehow causing this? Unless its Tee'd to the filter underground and if thats the case my brain broke a little.

 

[siberian]

Welcome to the forum!


The Intelliflo can only be controlled via serial communication (RS-485) which won't work w/ the older Compool. There is the Compool to EasyTouch Upgrade Kit which would allow that but as you already stated that's not something you're looking at right now. Assuming that you don't have the newer Intelliflo3?

I am using a latest generation Intelliflow VSF, just not automating it.

I've had that upgrade kit on my list of things to buy, the only thing holding me back is that I don't think it works with my existing Compool head-end, I'd need to replace it with the EasyTouch panel and wireless kit and I haven't quite made that jump yet as I really like the ease of use of the old compool black panel tech. A dial for my temperature? Yes please!

But to your larger point, this is probably the way to go as I could relay the spa pump to the primary pump relay output and probably solve the problem. Is that how you were seeing it? Or does the EasyTouch stuff allow for digital programmability directly?

 

[1poolman1]

Here is a picture, the plumbing eludes me on this as the spa pump (black pump on the left) is only piped to the spa which means it must be pushing pressure back through the spa intake and somehow causing this? Unless its Tee'd to the filter underground and if thats the case my brain broke a little.

View attachment 461113

Do both pumps feed spa jets, perhaps the same jets? Since it only happens when the main pump is off, the Sta-Rite pump may just be a jet booster pump that would have been used along with whatever pump used to be the main filtration/spa pump. If so, it could force water backwards through the system. Nothing above ground appears to be able to cause your issue from this photo.

Is there a tile on the top step that says "Master Pools?" Members of that group always used gold paint on their plumbing and had some "interesting" plumbing.

 

[guinness]

The latest generation VSF could mean the Intelliflo3 (011075), but I think you're referring to the older IntelliFlo (011056).

Which Compool system do you have, CP1XXX, CP2XXX, CP3XXX? Take a photo inside the panel to see if we can identify it.

On that note, you can Create Your Signature to show a pool/spa and also include your equipment like pumps, filters, etc.

Is your Intelliflo wired into the breaker or through a relay in the Compool? They are designed to be powered constantly.

 

[siberian]

The latest generation VSF could mean the Intelliflo3 (011075), but I think you're referring to the older IntelliFlo (011056).

Which Compool system do you have, CP1XXX, CP2XXX, CP3XXX? Take a photo inside the panel to see if we can identify it.

On that note, you can Create Your Signature to show a pool/spa and also include your equipment like pumps, filters, etc.

Is your Intelliflo wired into the breaker or through a relay in the Compool? They are designed to be powered constantly.

Great catch @guinness , it is the 011056. Currently, it just runs the built-in keypad using the 8 programs and is direct wired, no relay control.

The pool pumps had bypassed the control system and had been wired to a mechanical timer prior to my ownership. Since it was a single-speed pump + the booster bump this meant my DE backflow condition could never happen.

I removed the timer from the circuit to just let the Intelliflo control the filter pump schedules and this decoupled the booster and filter pump from synchronized runs, creating this DE backflow problem.

The old control system controls the heater thermostat, heater activation, and valve control. I think it is a CP-2000 variant and is connected to an LX-10 control box at the pool pad.

It looks like EasyTouch has a concept of 'circuits' where you can logically attach components. I am not familiar with that controller yet so I think I need to do some research. If that would let me chain my booster to my filter pump it would be worth the upgrade. I'd also get to control my Intellibrites in as well and stop controlling them only with the app, that would be nice.

Such a bummer to lose this cool artifact of a control panel though. Its so easy to use, I was really hoping for a simple relay solution.

 

[guinness]

Yes, I think you have the LX-10 Power Center by the pool pad. Can you get a photo of that with the door open?

The Compool to EasyTouch Upgrade Kit w/ Transformer can replace the TimeMaster with LX-10 Power Center.

Automation failing - fix or replace?

The Compool (CP3800) automation for my pool spa combo is getting wonky and I'm wondering if there is a quick fix or is it more economical to just replace. The issue is that I can't trust the compool to run the schedule so I am stuck leaving the system in service mode (operated only at the...

www.troublefreepool.com

Sadly the indoor control panel you have will need to be replaced with the Pentair EasyTouch Indoor Control Panel.

It looks like EasyTouch has a concept of 'circuits' where you can logically attach components. I am not familiar with that controller yet so I think I need to do some research. If that would let me chain my booster to my filter pump it would be worth the upgrade.

Yes, you would attach a comm cable to the Intelliflo allowing the ET to control it and the booster pump via a relay. @Jimrahbe can probably outline the programming needed to ensure the spa booster pump can only run when the filtration pump is on.

 

[JamesW]

The lines must be tied together underground.

You can install a Jandy check valve after the filter to prevent backflow.

 

[Jimrahbe]

JimRahbe can probably outline the programming needed to ensure the spa booster pump can only run when the filtration pump is on.

Siberian,

Upgrading to the EasyTouch would be a big help in automating your pool operation and controlling your pump via the RS-485 com cable.

The easiest way to ensure that the Spa pump never comes on unless the Main pump is running would be to wire the Spa pump to the load side of the Pump/Filter relay which only closes when in the Pool or Spa mode and the main pump is being told to run. It is exactly what we do to control a salt system, as we never want it on unless the main pump is running.

As for your other DE issue... I have a couple of questions.

1. I assume the IntelliFlo pump is connected to your spa via an automated valve and that you 'could' run the spa without the Spa pump being on. Is that true?

2. I assume that your spa pump just adds extra 'juice' to your Spa jets. Is that true?

3. I assume that normal spa operation would be to have both pumps on at the same time. Is that true?

4. It looks cramped, but is it possible for us to see the whole equipment pad so that we can see both the Intake and Return valves in your system? Even several pics that we could piece together would help.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[siberian]

Yes, I think you have the LX-10 Power Center by the pool pad. Can you get a photo of that with the door open?

The Compool to EasyTouch Upgrade Kit w/ Transformer can replace the TimeMaster with LX-10 Power Center.

Automation failing - fix or replace?

The Compool (CP3800) automation for my pool spa combo is getting wonky and I'm wondering if there is a quick fix or is it more economical to just replace. The issue is that I can't trust the compool to run the schedule so I am stuck leaving the system in service mode (operated only at the...

www.troublefreepool.com

Sadly the indoor control panel you have will need to be replaced with the Pentair EasyTouch Indoor Control Panel.



Yes, you would attach a comm cable to the Intelliflo allowing the ET to control it and the booster pump via a relay. @Jimrahbe can probably outline the programming needed to ensure the spa booster pump can only run when the filtration pump is on.

Here is my LX-10 open. I agree, its time to upgrade this thing. I already purchased replacement relays for the existing relays that are dead (primarily the pool relay) so I think the upgrade kit just replaces the left side of the box (the logic) and that logic controls the existing right side of box relay strip?

 

[siberian]

Siberian,

Upgrading to the EasyTouch would be a big help in automating your pool operation and controlling your pump via the RS-485 com cable.

The easiest way to ensure that the Spa pump never comes on unless the Main pump is running would be to wire the Spa pump to the load side of the Pump/Filter relay which only closes when in the Pool or Spa mode and the main pump is being told to run. It is exactly what we do to control a salt system, as we never want it on unless the main pump is running.

As for your other DE issue... I have a couple of questions.

1. I assume the IntelliFlo pump is connected to your spa via an automated valve and that you 'could' run the spa without the Spa pump being on. Is that true?

2. I assume that your spa pump just adds extra 'juice' to your Spa jets. Is that true?

3. I assume that normal spa operation would be to have both pumps on at the same time. Is that true?

4. It looks cramped, but is it possible for us to see the whole equipment pad so that we can see both the Intake and Return valves in your system? Even several pics that we could piece together would help.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks for this, it matches a lot of what I had in my head.

1. That was my initial thinking, I just was not sure if it was accepted practice or not. Sounds like it is.. But I think its probably better to just update my automation. There is a lot to be said for fixing all my problems at once.

2. Correct, the spa pump is just a booster for the jets. When I am on spa/spa mode the jets run, just at a slower rate.

3. Correct, for normal spa they both run.

4. Here are a bunch of pics, its such an old install and I was planning to scap it and restart after we moved in but I was able to get things working for the most part so I decided to just keep upgrading and tweaking until it does what I need it to.

 

[1poolman1]

Here is my LX-10 open. I agree, its time to upgrade this thing. I already purchased replacement relays for the existing relays that are dead (primarily the pool relay) so I think the upgrade kit just replaces the left side of the box (the logic) and that logic controls the existing right side of box relay strip?

View attachment 461311

Upgrade kit replaces the left side panel plus the transformer. You need Pentair 521247. Comes with the required transformer. James W's advice on a check valve after the filter will eliminate the issue if you aren't able to make the change right away.

 

[siberian]

Upgrade kit replaces the left side panel plus the transformer. You need Pentair 521247. Comes with the required transformer. James W's advice on a check valve after the filter will eliminate the issue if you aren't able to make the change right away.

I think its time to do this, making my order now.

Many dumb questions coming in a week or two, tx for all the help!

 

[guinness]

Good luck with the upgrade, would recommend reading this post if you haven't already. Also I assume you kept the communication cable that came with the Intelliflo pump, otherwise you will need Pentair part 350122 if you didn't.