Hello all, hoping to get some advice. First time pool owner and bought house with it. Put solar pool heating panels on this winter. Just started them up today to test and am concerned because water level in pool pump drops when the solar heating turns on. It’s still up to almost top of basket but not to top of case like is normally. I actually noticed this when they installed and tested it but they told me it’s norma. The skeptic in me is wondering if that’s the truth though. I attached a photo but not sure how much that helps. They set it to 2750 rpm. I even tried raising the rpm up to max just to see and it did raise water some but it’s not full. Hoping someone can advise me on whether I should pursue this further or not an issue. Thanks!
Solar Heater on, low water level pump
- Thread starter Scuff
- Start date
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,126
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Scuff,
Welcome to TFP!
Can you please provide some more information about your pool? Best thing to do is to add this to your signature so you don't have to type it in again. This also helps our experts be more efficient with their volunteer time. Here's how to add a signature. How many panels do you have and what size? Does the suction screen fill back up after you bypass the solar panels? Also can you please post a photo that shows your entire equipment pad? Where are the panels?
Since you're new to TFP may I suggest you review ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry ? We do pool care a little differently but it works, it's dirt cheap since we use mostly generic chemicals from big box stores - no expensive pool store potions needed.
Chris
Welcome to TFP!
Can you please provide some more information about your pool? Best thing to do is to add this to your signature so you don't have to type it in again. This also helps our experts be more efficient with their volunteer time. Here's how to add a signature. How many panels do you have and what size? Does the suction screen fill back up after you bypass the solar panels? Also can you please post a photo that shows your entire equipment pad? Where are the panels?
Since you're new to TFP may I suggest you review ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry ? We do pool care a little differently but it works, it's dirt cheap since we use mostly generic chemicals from big box stores - no expensive pool store potions needed.
Chris
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,161
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
How many skimmers do you have?
Your water level halfway or more up the skimmer mouth?
You have weir doors on your skimmers? You confirm they swing freely and are not sticking?
Have you look at your skimmer performance and water level when your solar is on versus off?
@mas985 thoughts on why the pump looks like it has low suction other then due to a suction side air leak?
www.troublefreepool.com
Your water level halfway or more up the skimmer mouth?
You have weir doors on your skimmers? You confirm they swing freely and are not sticking?
Have you look at your skimmer performance and water level when your solar is on versus off?
@mas985 thoughts on why the pump looks like it has low suction other then due to a suction side air leak?
Suction Side Air Leaks
If you see air bubbles coming out of the return lines in your pool, you likely have a leak. Some signs that a suction side plumbing leak has occurred include: Read more
www.troublefreepool.com
There is only 1 skimmer and yes its over 1/2 way up maybe even 3/4. There are no weir doors. I'm pretty new to pools so not sure on performance but no noticeable issues otherwise, only concern was the low water level really just wondering if that would affect the pump either short term or long term. Thanks for all your helpHow many skimmers do you have?
Your water level halfway or more up the skimmer mouth?
You have weir doors on your skimmers? You confirm they swing freely and are not sticking?
Have you look at your skimmer performance and water level when your solar is on versus off?
@mas985 thoughts on why the pump looks like it has low suction other then due to a suction side air leak?
Suction Side Air Leaks
If you see air bubbles coming out of the return lines in your pool, you likely have a leak. Some signs that a suction side plumbing leak has occurred include: Read more
- May 3, 2007
- 16,823
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Most likely it is a suction leak. Air in the pump basket is never "normal" but sometimes not an issue either.
Solar adds head loss and so will reduce flow rate in the plumbing. The air leak may just appear worse when in fact it is the lower flow rate unable to clear the air from the pump basket as quickly as when the flow rate is higher.
The other possibility is that with the lower flow rate, there is less suction in the pump basket so it may not seal as well. You can try lubing the pump basket o-ring to see if it helps.
Solar adds head loss and so will reduce flow rate in the plumbing. The air leak may just appear worse when in fact it is the lower flow rate unable to clear the air from the pump basket as quickly as when the flow rate is higher.
The other possibility is that with the lower flow rate, there is less suction in the pump basket so it may not seal as well. You can try lubing the pump basket o-ring to see if it helps.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,161
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Probably not related to your pump problem but you do need a weir door for the skimmer to do its skimming function. The door uses surface tension to drag water into the skimmer to collect floating pond debris inside the basket. The weir door will help collection of the debris that floats on the surface of the pool water.
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How Your Pool's Plumbing System Works
Discover how a weir relates to the skimmer in your swimming pool, along with the rest of the pool's basic plumbing system.
So if suction side leak was “fixed” there
so would “fixing” the suction side leak result in water staying full in pump? Also would I want to increase rpm at this point? (Already 2750). Just seems when solar engaged flow rate definitely down and pool sweep slows etc. Also just don’t want to damage pump
Or is this a non issue with water level just at top of basket, don’t want to overthink things either
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,161
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Are air bubbles coming out of your return?
If the pump is not cavitating or running dry then the pump will not be damaged.
It sounds like while the pump basket is not full of water the air bubble is not down to the pump intake side.
If the pump is not cavitating or running dry then the pump will not be damaged.
It sounds like while the pump basket is not full of water the air bubble is not down to the pump intake side.
No bubbles after the first couple minutes. Just wondering also if I’d have better performance on solar panels with better flow rate
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,161
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Then I would not worry about your pump being damaged.
There is an optimum flow rate for a set of panels. Too fast or too slow is not optimum.
Maybe @Dirk can elaborate on that.
- May 3, 2007
- 16,823
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
I would still try to lube the pump basket. Although it isn't causing an issue right now, it will likely only get worse over time and eventually cause a problem.
Rule of thumb for solar is 0.1 GPM/sqft. Or you can set flow rate so the temperature rise across the panels is less than 5 degF.
Rule of thumb for solar is 0.1 GPM/sqft. Or you can set flow rate so the temperature rise across the panels is less than 5 degF.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,819
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
While my pump's lid almost always traps a few small bubbles, if I saw the amount of air you're describing I would assume there's a problem. It would be unrelated to my solar panels, except perhaps as Mark describes: the flow rate changing is just revealing some upstream problem. My flow rate would go down when my solar kicks on, that would be expected behavior, except my automation controller automatically ramps up the flow rate when solar heat is called for, so I don't actually see the flow rate drop. Regardless, my solar kicking in doesn't, and shouldn't, draw air into my pump.
The first time my solar heater comes on each day, the empty panels fill with water and a lot of air is pumped out of them. The air ends up in pool as quite a display of a lot of bubbles coming out of all of my returns. Not quite jacuzzi level, but enough to get waves going and make a decent racket. If the heater turns off and on throughout the day, this filling process is not repeated. My panels remain full all day, whether they're heating the pool or not. Then, at the end of the day, when my filter pump is finished and turns off, the panels drain all but a small amount of water back into the pool. The water is displaced by air that is sucked in through a vacuum breaker installed near my roof. It sounds a bit like a frog croaking. So that's why the panels are empty the next morning, and then the whole process repeats each day.
It's my understanding that my setup and the way it works is a typical solar heater installation. There are other ways to make it all happen, so it's hard to say from your one pic if that's how your setup would work. One thing to watch out for, because I see you have a chlorinator, is that the output of the chlorinator should not feed into the solar panels. Water for the solar panels should head to the roof and then return to your plumbing in between your filter and your chlorinator. So that's something you can double check. Or provide more pics from several angles of all your plumbing.
I determined the optimum flow rate for the type and number of my solar panels by referring to the panels' installation manual. The optimum rate for one is 5GPM. I multiplied that by the number of panels to get the flow rate: 8 panels x 5GPM = 40GPM. I replaced the "guts" of one of my check valves with a FlowVis flow meter, and then it was a very simple matter to adjust the RPM of my variable speed pump to achieve 40GPM. That's it. I know that my panels are heating my pool as cost effectively as possible. As Allen points out: too little flow will not heat the pool as well as it could be, and too much flow will just cost more in electricity without a corresponding increase in heat.
As Mark points out, there are other ways to calculate your flow rate. He gave you some simple math, along with an alternate method. Some installers just feel the solar heater output at a pool return and if the return water is slightly warmer than the pool water, then they're done. Mark gave you that 5°F number, that's about right. It's often misunderstood that by reducing the flow (RPM), which results in warmer water out of the return, that that is good. But the physics of heating a pool dictate that it's better to move a lot of water that is a little warmer, then less water that is a lot warmer.
Anywho, I didn't want to rely on guessing, or feeling, or estimating with math, I wanted to make sure my flow rate was dead on. And so I went with a flow meter. I also use that meter to adjust flow for my cleaner, and my SWG and I monitor it throughout the year to adjust flow rates as they drop due to the filter slowing things up as it collects dirt. So I get good value from that purchase, and my solar heater is as efficient as it can be...
The first time my solar heater comes on each day, the empty panels fill with water and a lot of air is pumped out of them. The air ends up in pool as quite a display of a lot of bubbles coming out of all of my returns. Not quite jacuzzi level, but enough to get waves going and make a decent racket. If the heater turns off and on throughout the day, this filling process is not repeated. My panels remain full all day, whether they're heating the pool or not. Then, at the end of the day, when my filter pump is finished and turns off, the panels drain all but a small amount of water back into the pool. The water is displaced by air that is sucked in through a vacuum breaker installed near my roof. It sounds a bit like a frog croaking. So that's why the panels are empty the next morning, and then the whole process repeats each day.
It's my understanding that my setup and the way it works is a typical solar heater installation. There are other ways to make it all happen, so it's hard to say from your one pic if that's how your setup would work. One thing to watch out for, because I see you have a chlorinator, is that the output of the chlorinator should not feed into the solar panels. Water for the solar panels should head to the roof and then return to your plumbing in between your filter and your chlorinator. So that's something you can double check. Or provide more pics from several angles of all your plumbing.
I determined the optimum flow rate for the type and number of my solar panels by referring to the panels' installation manual. The optimum rate for one is 5GPM. I multiplied that by the number of panels to get the flow rate: 8 panels x 5GPM = 40GPM. I replaced the "guts" of one of my check valves with a FlowVis flow meter, and then it was a very simple matter to adjust the RPM of my variable speed pump to achieve 40GPM. That's it. I know that my panels are heating my pool as cost effectively as possible. As Allen points out: too little flow will not heat the pool as well as it could be, and too much flow will just cost more in electricity without a corresponding increase in heat.
As Mark points out, there are other ways to calculate your flow rate. He gave you some simple math, along with an alternate method. Some installers just feel the solar heater output at a pool return and if the return water is slightly warmer than the pool water, then they're done. Mark gave you that 5°F number, that's about right. It's often misunderstood that by reducing the flow (RPM), which results in warmer water out of the return, that that is good. But the physics of heating a pool dictate that it's better to move a lot of water that is a little warmer, then less water that is a lot warmer.
Anywho, I didn't want to rely on guessing, or feeling, or estimating with math, I wanted to make sure my flow rate was dead on. And so I went with a flow meter. I also use that meter to adjust flow for my cleaner, and my SWG and I monitor it throughout the year to adjust flow rates as they drop due to the filter slowing things up as it collects dirt. So I get good value from that purchase, and my solar heater is as efficient as it can be...