NHeard, you should lower the pH with Muriatic Acid. That will bring down the TA some as well. You might have added too much Borax relative to acid. Not a problem, just adjust it now. You can get into the pool as soon as you measure the pH being at least roughly in a decent range -- say below 8.0 though even that probably would not be a problem. The main reason to get the pH down now is to prevent scaling, though that's probably unlikely in your pool given your vinyl pool and probably low CH.
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nuklhed
LifeTime Supporter
We need some tips to find a supply source of Borax. Local stores only stock household quantities, even the local warehouse "Smart&Final Iris" (supplier to retailers) only had three 4-lb boxes.!... at $7 each too. Surely some distributor warehouse would have bags in the 20-30-lb range. Suitably priced too. Where do we look? I wrote to manufacturer of "20 Mule Team Borax" for distributor and they did not respond.
nuklhead - I was going to order Boric Acid from DudaDiesel in a 50lb tub. Total with shipping would come to about $100. With Boric acid, you don't need to balance Ph with Muriatic acid - so you save the expense of that and the worry of getting the numbers right. I figured the price would work out to be about the same as getting all that borax and acid.
- Jun 12, 2011
- 3,788
- Pool Size
- 19500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pureline Crystal Pure 60,000
I found borax cheaper since the shipping on one pail of boric acid was $40. I was able to buy 14 boxes of 20 Mule Team Borax at my local Walmart for between $4 and change. Four gallons of MA at $5 each and I'm good to go.
True, there is a small cost savings at those prices, but it is not huge.chiefwej said:
55 lbs of boric acid at Dudadiesel is $75 plus $35 for shipping (at least to MN) so for a total of $110 which will bring a 23000 gallon pool up to 50 ppm borates.
Using borax to raise the same pool to 50 ppm borates would require 18 boxes (each box is 76 oz) X $4 = $72 plus Muriatic Acid 5 gallons X $5 = $25 for a total of $97. Net savings of $13 dollars, but the application of the Boric Acid is quicker and easier.
Granular. The powder tends to sit on the surface of the water or clump on the bottom, but the granular dissolves much better.
Thanks chem geek. When dosing with boric acid instead of borax, should it be dosed the same way Half; Brush; Half; Brush? Also, is the dissolve/circulation time the same?
Boric acid dissolves more easily than borax, so you can generally add it all at once and don't need to brush (as long as you are using granular).
nuklhed
LifeTime Supporter
Note to Sci2, I just visited DudaDiesel's website regarding the Boric Acid idea, but in a larger sense, are we certain it's just the boron doing all the work in our chemistry? Wiki tells us the formula is much simpler, H3.BO3. Much different from borax, Na2.B4.O7-10H2.O
Having dickens of a time finding bulk supplier, Ace Hardware appears to be most ubiquitous, case of six 4-lb boxes=$42, $1.75/lb. At least delivery free to your nearest store. Four cases=96 lbs., $168. Not cheap.
Somewhere in this great nation there's a stack of 50-lb sacks on a pallet, and I'm determined to find it!
Might be easier to drive out to Death Valley and back the truck up to the tailings pile. :lol:
-- da nuklhed
Having dickens of a time finding bulk supplier, Ace Hardware appears to be most ubiquitous, case of six 4-lb boxes=$42, $1.75/lb. At least delivery free to your nearest store. Four cases=96 lbs., $168. Not cheap.
Somewhere in this great nation there's a stack of 50-lb sacks on a pallet, and I'm determined to find it!
Might be easier to drive out to Death Valley and back the truck up to the tailings pile. :lol:
-- da nuklhed
nuklhed just curious why you are set on borax verse boric acid? Because of the quantity of borax and MA needed is why I'm leaning towards boric acid. I thought that each achieve the same result but you're able to use less quantity going with boric acid and you don't have near the PH swing.
When Borax dissolves in water, it produces the same boric acid that comes from boric acid directly.
Na2B4O7•10H2O ---> 2Na+ + 4B(OH)3 + 2OH- + 3H2O
Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) ---> Sodium Ion + Boric Acid + Hydroxyl Ion + Water
after adding Muriatic Acid to compensate for pH you (pretty much) get the following result:
2Na+ + 4B(OH)3 + 2Cl- + 5H2O
Sodium Ion + Boric Acid + Chloride Ion + Water
It is true that by weight you need more borax, plus you have to also use muriatic acid, but that combination is usually somewhat cheaper than boric acid so the only issues are ones of weight and convenience (i.e. not having to balance to adjust for pH).
With the Borax + Acid approach, the only thing extra you end up with is salt. So get out of your mind any concern about the complexity of the initial Borax chemical as that is not relevant unless you are concerned with the 54% greater weight compared to boric acid and the extra acid you need to add when using borax. It's a cost/convenience tradeoff.
Na2B4O7•10H2O ---> 2Na+ + 4B(OH)3 + 2OH- + 3H2O
Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) ---> Sodium Ion + Boric Acid + Hydroxyl Ion + Water
after adding Muriatic Acid to compensate for pH you (pretty much) get the following result:
2Na+ + 4B(OH)3 + 2Cl- + 5H2O
Sodium Ion + Boric Acid + Chloride Ion + Water
It is true that by weight you need more borax, plus you have to also use muriatic acid, but that combination is usually somewhat cheaper than boric acid so the only issues are ones of weight and convenience (i.e. not having to balance to adjust for pH).
With the Borax + Acid approach, the only thing extra you end up with is salt. So get out of your mind any concern about the complexity of the initial Borax chemical as that is not relevant unless you are concerned with the 54% greater weight compared to boric acid and the extra acid you need to add when using borax. It's a cost/convenience tradeoff.
I took the plunge today and added borates! I prepared for it by spending the weekend getting TA from 120 down to 70-80. Ph was a tad low at 7.2 but I am working from home today and wanted to get this over with.
I added the quantity of borax indicated by pool calculator targeting 50ppm, rounded down to the nearest # of boxes (only missed out on .2 of a 76oz box). The quantity of MA I had on hand was 92% of what was calculated. I decided to go for it and plan for a trip to pick up a bit more this afternoon.
2 hours later I tested Ph and it came out at 7.8. I was surprised it wasn't higher, but I later figure I came out with a good number because I was a tad low to start with. Delayed trip to Home Depot. Yay! I'll let things run as usual and recheck in a couple of days after the dust settles.
I only read about half of the pages in this thread (first several pages and last several pages) so I don't know if anyone posted anything similar to my incident... which is:
Accidental spillage of MA on pavers causes effervescence and discoloration. :x
Yes, I quickly hit it with a hose but damage was already done. Of course, the pavers are only 3 weeks old.
I can tell there is more sparkle! I'm still glad I did it. I'm excited to see how much it offsets the upward pressure on Ph from the SWG doing its thing.
I added the quantity of borax indicated by pool calculator targeting 50ppm, rounded down to the nearest # of boxes (only missed out on .2 of a 76oz box). The quantity of MA I had on hand was 92% of what was calculated. I decided to go for it and plan for a trip to pick up a bit more this afternoon.
2 hours later I tested Ph and it came out at 7.8. I was surprised it wasn't higher, but I later figure I came out with a good number because I was a tad low to start with. Delayed trip to Home Depot. Yay! I'll let things run as usual and recheck in a couple of days after the dust settles.
I only read about half of the pages in this thread (first several pages and last several pages) so I don't know if anyone posted anything similar to my incident... which is:
Accidental spillage of MA on pavers causes effervescence and discoloration. :x
Yes, I quickly hit it with a hose but damage was already done. Of course, the pavers are only 3 weeks old.
I can tell there is more sparkle! I'm still glad I did it. I'm excited to see how much it offsets the upward pressure on Ph from the SWG doing its thing.
Borates have been awesome for my pool and do everything as advertised. I would recommend them to anyone. My pool is completely shaded and always has high phosphate levels and haven't had any sort of algae outbreak. I travel a lot so it provides a great buffer for when the FC drops low.
Boric Acid has just arrived from DudaDiesel. I plan to put it all in this evening and run the pumps all night.
My readings last night were:
PH 7.6
TA about 65
FC 4.5
CH about 235
Water Temp 82
CYA 40
Based on what I've read here, I should be good to go and the pool calculator indicates I'll be pretty close to the target of 50 ppm with 30#. If I need to adjust up, I'll use Borax and acid. The cost for the Boric Acid was only slightly more than Borax and MA using Walmart and Home Depot prices. Our Borax is higher here at Walmart than what I see other people posting (i.e. about $4.50 with tax for 76 oz). MA runs about $6.75 a gallon with tax. The two 15 pound containers of Boric acid from DudaDiesel were $75.50 delivered to my door.
I'll let you all know how it comes out in a few days. I have to run the spa overflow to mix the pool water into the spa, but total water volume should be about 13,000 gallons.
My readings last night were:
PH 7.6
TA about 65
FC 4.5
CH about 235
Water Temp 82
CYA 40
Based on what I've read here, I should be good to go and the pool calculator indicates I'll be pretty close to the target of 50 ppm with 30#. If I need to adjust up, I'll use Borax and acid. The cost for the Boric Acid was only slightly more than Borax and MA using Walmart and Home Depot prices. Our Borax is higher here at Walmart than what I see other people posting (i.e. about $4.50 with tax for 76 oz). MA runs about $6.75 a gallon with tax. The two 15 pound containers of Boric acid from DudaDiesel were $75.50 delivered to my door.
I'll let you all know how it comes out in a few days. I have to run the spa overflow to mix the pool water into the spa, but total water volume should be about 13,000 gallons.
Looks like you are good to go with the Boric Acid. 30 lbs should get you close enough to 50, so no need to worry about adding more (I get 48 ppm).hoosierrun said:
OK, all 30 pounds of Boric acid is in the pool. I did have a little problem though. I tried to desolve a couple of pounds in a 4-5 gallon plastic bucket. The product foamed a little and the crystals only partially desolved. When I poured the mixture into the deep end of the pool, some of the crystals landed on the bottom and discolored the blue granite finish. As soon as I saw the light splotches on the bottom, I got the pole and brush out and began brushing agressively. I tried the same method again in a different part of the pool and the same thing happened. I can't get the discoloration to come off. There is something about this blue granite finish that is very sensitive to any product that touches it including baking soda and soda ash.
I figured since the Boric acid is almost PH neutral, I'd just pour the rest in the skimmer. I mixed 3-4 pounds in the bucket and slowly added it as a slurry into the skimmer, mixing up about 6-8 bucketfulls to get the remaining 20 pounds in. The pump is running and I'll keep it on as long as we can stand it (bedroom is next to the outside wall where the pump is). Tomorrow I'll re-check all the chemicals and check the Borate level with the Lemotte test strip. The water is crystal clear. I'm trying this as a preventative and trying to be really concenious about keeping all the chemicals in check. This board has been a huge help. The next project is to get the liguidator installed.
As far as the discoloration in the blue granite... I hope it dissipates over time. I had read most of the posts in this thread and don't recall anyone having that problem.
I figured since the Boric acid is almost PH neutral, I'd just pour the rest in the skimmer. I mixed 3-4 pounds in the bucket and slowly added it as a slurry into the skimmer, mixing up about 6-8 bucketfulls to get the remaining 20 pounds in. The pump is running and I'll keep it on as long as we can stand it (bedroom is next to the outside wall where the pump is). Tomorrow I'll re-check all the chemicals and check the Borate level with the Lemotte test strip. The water is crystal clear. I'm trying this as a preventative and trying to be really concenious about keeping all the chemicals in check. This board has been a huge help. The next project is to get the liguidator installed.
As far as the discoloration in the blue granite... I hope it dissipates over time. I had read most of the posts in this thread and don't recall anyone having that problem.
Hoosierrun - any update on the discoloration? We are in the process of building our first pool and also are going with the blue granite pebble sheen. Has anyone else with a pebble sheen finish had a similar experience as hoosierrun? Thanks in large part to the wealth of information provided on this site, I had planned to use boric acid to add borates to our pool and want to be sure to apply properly to avoid discoloration or other unwanted side effects.
I did my pool yesterday tested the ph after 24 hrs and it was 7.5.The pool looks wonderful.Wish I done it when the water was warner to see how it feels 
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