Should I fire my PB? Help!

[Tenamarie123]

I really don't think it will come to that, because, like you said, the guy knows he messed up, or does now once he got the report back from the guy who concluded "Rip it out." But if it comes to it, you might check with your states' Contractors Board (I believe both FL and MI have one). Do a little Googling and see what pressure they can wield against misbehavin' State Contractors. You don't need to file with them yet, but a few quotes about what they can do, injected at the right time into conversations with either your PB or his sub, might nudge them along a little faster. I found the CA code online and it was quite easy to read and understand. I'll be using the code numbers my pool guy violated in a letter to him. My instinct is that is going to get results. I'll let you know...

Point was: in California, if you sue a Contractor and win a judgement, and the guy won't pay (they have 30 days to pay, here), our Board will suspend their contractor's license until they pay! Yep. They go out of business and can't work. Now, that might be counter productive if the guy is living day to day, so I'll have to weigh that move carefully, but certainly the threat of that, backed up by the code number, will go a long way, again, should it come to that. If I sue and win, I'll get paid or put my guy of work. See if that's true for you.




IMHO, I think widening the cuts and putting in some sort of inlay could be cool. Though I'm not sure how that's going to fix the line you said was 10" askew. If that's right, and they make the cut that wide to hide it, that could be cool, too. Though I'd then want all the lines made that wide, to look right, and I'd want them placed around the entire deck, like they were meant to be there, not hiding something. If it was designed right, I suppose even inlays of varying widths could look good, too. However it's done, that seems like a reasonable solution/compromise that could leave both parties walking away feeling good about it. And that is ultimately what you want.

One caution to consider...

My deck is done just like that. I have flagstone coping* and inlays to match:

View attachment 70935

I LOVE them. And they don't have to be straight, necessarily, they could be curved or skewed even. Could be done in such a way as to add some personality to your concrete that you might not have originally considered. Sorry, showing off. Point was: there is an expansion joint running around the entire perimeter of the coping. It's rubbery, and allows for the problem when butting concrete up to stone, which is: they don't expand and contract at the same rate. The expansion joint takes care of that. Now, my inlays were not set that way, they were put in with mortar, and now the mortar is popping out or pulling away, cracking here and there, for that very expansion-problem reason. I asked the tile guy that worked on my remodel if he could fix that, and he said not to put mortar back in there, but use the expansion stuff (which I happen to know how to do). So... if you're going to fix your deck with inlays, make sure the installer accounts for this issue in some way.

*Flagstone, by the way, at least the type I have, is awful for coping. I absolutely LOVE the look, but it deteriorates from the water, and the salt, and turns back into sand (it is, after all, just compressed sand). I had the problem solved, so if anyone has that problem, I can tell them how to fix it. But it wasn't cheap. And my stone has a gnarly, jagged edge, which I also love, but isn't particularly kid friendly. I didn't build this pool, but I do like what the previous owner's did. I'm just not sure I'd do it exactly the same if I had it to do over.

And you might keep in mind, should you do something similar to solve your issues... you might be able to see them from space!!

View attachment 70936

OK, one last thought, a little holiday inspiration, then I gotta go get my turkey on!! The debacle with my pool guy has been incredibly stressful. I got physically ill. Went on for months. And not because it was so bad. In the grand scheme of things. I didn't contract some horrible disease. Nobody died. Life on this planet will go on. It was just a few thousand dollars of plaster, after all. No, it was because I just get worked up over such things, and let it get to me. But now that it is coming to it's conclusion, whether I get any money out of the guy or not, I can look back on the experience and see the silver lining. I have a brand new pool! It looks 100x better than it did. And the plaster guys fixed some other things about the pool that I didn't like (they deleted the drains, they added directional eyeballs, etc), and I've come to realize that this knucklehead has actually done me a favor, in the long run. I have a better pool for it, and he might have to pay for most of it! And... it led me here, to TFP, which is going to allow me to maintain this pool myself and keep it looking amazing, for the rest of my life. Not to mention saving me about $50K in pool maintenance costs over the next 20 years or so. Now, I don't mean to lessen what you are going through, what you're feeling is real, but my holiday wish for you is that, in the end, you too will be able to look back, be proud of what you accomplished, be proud of the way you fought for it, and end up with a nicer pool than you would have otherwise!

Cheers, and Happy Thanksgiving all!!

To your first point, I really don't think it will come to having to sue anyone either...God I really hope not. I will however take your advice and seek out my state's contractor's board and at least gain some knowledge so I can have a little ammunition.

Your pool is gorgeous! I'm so happy for you that things have worked out for the best. I absolutely LOVE your flagstone coping and how the inlays were done. Gives me hope and inspiration! Love your jumping rock too, I'm sure the kids do have a blast! Our pool is only a little over 6' in the deep end so would worry the kids may hit bottom?

I do appreciate all your advice and encouragement Dirk, you've been extremely helpful. Love your attitude too, when life hands you lemons..
I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving. Ours was very nice. As, not so pretty as our pool is at the moment, we are extremely grateful and thankful that we were even able to put one in. I know in the end, we will have tons of fun swimming next summer with our family and friends and that's what it's all about. Once we pass the hurdles and tribulations that come with most pool builds, all will be good.

I do have to ask though, if you can share, what happened to your plaster redo project? The pic is slightly far away so I can't tell too much what it looks like. What color did you do in there?

 

[Tenamarie123]

Lil off the OP here, Concrete deck itself isn't bonded the steel bars ladders mounts etc in the deck are bonded.. - metal elements 5 ft from inside pool are called to be bonded.
Find out which NEC680 your state is under & consult your officials or a private entity I think you may have stumbled on ammunition, for that thing you have going on.

No worries. That's what is so great about this forum, people offering thoughtful and knowledgeable advice with no expectations other than to help someone

 

[aussieta]

when we built our first house the builder was quite shoddy
my friend had built with him , which was why we chose him.
there were so many defects, but the housing guarantee fund (a state licensing board)
came out and just defended the builder, kept saying no structural defects
anyway i told builder i was putting a sign out front
james and may display home please inquire inside
by time a few hundred people have been shown your work, word will get around
well all of a sudden the builder will replace the cracked door step, the bowed doors, install a new shelf under kitchen cabinets
unfortunately could not move the house to where the plans showed it on the land
but i suggest you tell pb you will put a sign out front advising if anybody is interested in what is involved in having a pool installed they can come and have a look

 

[Dirk]

To your first point, I really don't think it will come to having to sue anyone either...God I really hope not. I will however take your advice and seek out my state's contractor's board and at least gain some knowledge so I can have a little ammunition.

Cool. I think you'll feel better just knowing what's available if and when...

Your pool is gorgeous! I'm so happy for you that things have worked out for the best. I absolutely LOVE your flagstone coping and how the inlays were done. Gives me hope and inspiration! Love your jumping rock too, I'm sure the kids do have a blast! Our pool is only a little over 6' in the deep end so would worry the kids may hit bottom?

Thank you. My pool is the same depth. 3, 5 and 9 year old g-kids have never touched bottom. Bigger kids can, if they try, but it's never been an issue. Not more than any of the other ways kids can brain themselves around a pool deck!

I do appreciate all your advice and encouragement Dirk, you've been extremely helpful. Love your attitude too, when life hands you lemons..

Easier to preach than to practice!

I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving. Ours was very nice. As, not so pretty as our pool is at the moment, we are extremely grateful and thankful that we were even able to put one in. I know in the end, we will have tons of fun swimming next summer with our family and friends and that's what it's all about. Once we pass the hurdles and tribulations that come with most pool builds, all will be good.

I do have to ask though, if you can share, what happened to your plaster redo project? The pic is slightly far away so I can't tell too much what it looks like. What color did you do in there?

I couldn't wait to resolve things with the pool guy before the remodel. So I just did it. I don't think this is an issue for you (though not sure) but empty gunite pools can float right out of the ground if they get enough water around them in the soil, so I wanted to get the job done before the rains. And I wanted to replaster when it was relatively cool out. So not summer, spring or winter, that meant now. I found a good contractor, they ripped out the old plaster and deleted my drains, installed eyeball returns and applied new micro-pebble finish. I loved my original color, kind of a dark teal (it's call Tahoe Blue), which contrasted perfectly with the stone and tinted concrete. I found a pebble that recreated that look and I'm very happy with the results. I haven't been in the pool yet, but I suspect the pebble, even micro, will not be as comfortable as the plaster. My plaster was sooooo smooth. But I don't walk around much in my pool, so the trade off (a pool surface that will last the rest of my days) was worth a bit rougher finish. The new color morphs a bit throughout the day, and I won't see it under direct sun until next summer, but so far I like every color it has. I'll try to post a better picture of the color and texture tomorrow...

 

[Tenamarie123]

when we built our first house the builder was quite shoddy
my friend had built with him , which was why we chose him.
there were so many defects, but the housing guarantee fund (a state licensing board)
came out and just defended the builder, kept saying no structural defects
anyway i told builder i was putting a sign out front
james and may display home please inquire inside
by time a few hundred people have been shown your work, word will get around
well all of a sudden the builder will replace the cracked door step, the bowed doors, install a new shelf under kitchen cabinets
unfortunately could not move the house to where the plans showed it on the land
but i suggest you tell pb you will put a sign out front advising if anybody is interested in what is involved in having a pool installed they can come and have a look

Oh this is brilliant!! I just may have to follow your lead on this one. Glad your builder came around and did what was right...fixed your issues. In the end, that's all we want is to get the job we're paying for right? Really don't think we have unreasonable expectations.

Cool. I think you'll feel better just know what's available if and when...



Thank you. My pool is the same depth. 3, 5 and 9 year old g-kids have never touched bottom. Bigger kids can, if they try, but it's never been an issue. Not more than any of the other ways kids can brain themselves around a pool deck!



Easier to preach than to practice!



I couldn't wait to resolve things with the pool guy before the remodel. So I just did it. I don't think this is an issue for you (though not sure) but gunite pools can float right out of the ground if they get enough water around them in the soil, so I wanted to get the job done before the rains. And I wanted to replaster when it was relatively cool out. So not summer, spring or winter, that meant now. I found a good contractor, they ripped out the old plaster and deleted my drains, installed eyeball returns and applied new micro-pebble finish. I loved my original color, kind of a dark teal (it's call Tahoe Blue), which contrasted perfectly with the stone and tinted concrete. I found a pebble that recreated that look and I'm very happy with the results. I haven't been in the pool yet, but I suspect the pebble, even micro, will not be as comfortable as the plaster. My plaster was sooooo smooth. But I don't walk around much in my pool, so the trade off (a pool surface that will last the rest of my days) was worth a bit rougher finish. The new color morphs a bit throughout the day, and I won't see it under direct sun until next summer, but so far I like every color it has. I try to post a better picture of the color and texture tomorrow...

Again, so happy for you that you're loving your new pool finish, color, etc. amidst all of the issues you're having with PB. Sounds like your grandkids have a blast in the pool and that's what it's all about. It really does look fantastic and would love to see a closer look at color when you can.

 

[Dirk]

It really does look fantastic and would love to see a closer look at color when you can.

Sun is mostly out today:



Hard to convey color through a camera and the 'net, but this is pretty close. It moves a bit greener or a bit bluer depending on time of day. Right in the middle is my favorite, so I'm happy with the color. I don't care for that bright, light Caribbean blue that is common to a lot of pools. I like the darker aqua shades. Nothing right or wrong. That's the great thing about building a pool, you can have it your way! I just lucked out that the previous owners designed the pool to my taste!

The shallower steps look much grayer. So I guess that's the water adding some blue? Not sure what the color dynamics are doing in a pool. I know that while scuba diving, the deeper I go the bluer everything looks (because red light waves penetrate water less than blue or green). Maybe that's true of pools, too, even though they're only 6' deep...

Which makes picking out colors even more challenging. From swatches? On a board in a show room?!? Good luck. I picked my color from my plasterer's headquarters. They had wading pools, but only a few feet deep. I picked my favorite surface, then relied on the sales person, who figured out what I was trying to describe and then selected my color for me. She done gud!

I was told the darker colors keep the pool warmer, but reveal calcium deposits more. I like warm! And TFP and I are going to see to it that my pool surface collects NO CALCIUM!!

Are you still shopping colors? Or have you picked one out? Virtually impossible, probably, but finding a pool in your neighborhood that has your color is the way to go. One mistake I made (that luckily didn't turn out to be a problem), was going to look at the show room pools too late in the day. You want to go at high-noon. This is kind of the wrong time of year for that, but simulating your "real world" is the goal, as much as possible.


Regarding your saw cuts? Any word on that? Going with inlays? I wanted to expound a bit on my previous advice, about "grouting" stone or tile with "goo" vs mortar:



Ground is wet from rain, ignore that. The rubbery expansion joint is the vertical seam. The mortar is the horizontal seam. Concrete is upper left, everything else is the stone. Notice the goo can be made to look a lot like mortar. I embedded sand into mine while it was drying. I didn't do a perfect job, and I used an inferior product, but my next go-round will be perfect, now that I know how better to do it.

The dimples are my bad. I was trying to smooth it out and embed the sand. All I did was leave my finger prints! The right stuff will self-level and be flat, like mortar. And the sand sticks without any help. That's what I'll do better next time.

Notice the mortar line to the left of the expansion joint. That first section is the goo. I filled that in like that after the mortar popped out. Also, in that same joint, you can maybe just see the crack forming along the upper edge of the mortar, between the mortar and the cement. That's what will happen. It's all over my deck. The grout between the stones is consistently fine. It's just the grout lines between the stone and the cement that are coming apart.

The downside of the expansion goo is that it doesn't hold up indefinitely. Mine is only a couple years old, and I need to redo some of it. And the previous application was bad when I took over the pool. So it is a maintenance item. But so are cracks. Like I said, I think I used the wrong stuff ('cause it was cheaper). Sika is the brand that I'll use next time. It's more expensive, but I think their stuff is the best.

 

[kimkats]

Dirk that pic of your pool........................whoa doggy that is pretty!!! Love how rich it looks!

Those pics of the goo and stone are outstanding to show her how yours looks. Thanks for taking the time and effort to show what you mean in such a easy to understand way with pics at that!

Kim

 

[Tenamarie123]

Sun is mostly out today:

View attachment 70999

Hard to convey color through a camera and the 'net, but this is pretty close. It moves a bit greener or a bit bluer depending on time of day. Right in the middle is my favorite, so I'm happy with the color. I don't care for that bright, light Caribbean blue that is common to a lot of pools. I like the darker aqua shades. Nothing right or wrong. That's the great thing about building a pool, you can have it your way! I just lucked out that the previous owners designed the pool to my taste!

The shallower steps look much grayer. So I guess that's the water adding some blue? Not sure what the color dynamics are doing in a pool. I know that while scuba diving, the deeper I go the bluer everything looks (because red light waves penetrate water less than blue or green). Maybe that's true of pools, too, even though they're only 6' deep...

Which makes picking out colors even more challenging. From swatches? On a board in a show room?!? Good luck. I picked my color from my plasterer's headquarters. They had wading pools, but only a few feet deep. I picked my favorite surface, then relied on the sales person, who figured out what I was trying to describe and then selected my color for me. She done gud!

I was told the darker colors keep the pool warmer, but reveal calcium deposits more. I like warm! And TFP and I are going to see to it that my pool surface collects NO CALCIUM!!

Are you still shopping colors? Or have you picked one out? Virtually impossible, probably, but finding a pool in your neighborhood that has your color is the way to go. One mistake I made (that luckily didn't turn out to be a problem), was going to look at the show room pools too late in the day. You want to go at high-noon. This is kind of the wrong time of year for that, but simulating your "real world" is the goal, as much as possible.


Regarding your saw cuts? Any word on that? Going with inlays? I wanted to expound a bit on my previous advice, about "grouting" stone or tile with "goo" vs mortar:

View attachment 71000

Ground is wet from rain, ignore that. The rubbery expansion joint is the vertical seam. The mortar is the horizontal seam. Concrete is upper left, everything else is the stone. Notice the goo can be made to look a lot like mortar. I embedded sand into mine while it was drying. I didn't do a perfect job, and I used an inferior product, but my next go-round will be perfect, now that I know how better to do it.

The dimples are my bad. I was trying to smooth it out and embed the sand. All I did was leave my finger prints! The right stuff will self-level and be flat, like mortar. And the sand sticks without any help. That's what I'll do better next time.

Notice the mortar line to the left of the expansion joint. That first section is the goo. I filled that in like that after the mortar popped out. Also, in that same joint, you can maybe just see the crack forming along the upper edge of the mortar, between the mortar and the cement. That's what will happen. It's all over my deck. The grout between the stones is consistently fine. It's just the grout lines between the stone and the cement that are coming apart.

The downside of the expansion goo is that it doesn't hold up indefinitely. Mine is only a couple years old, and I need to redo some of it. And the previous application was bad when I took over the pool. So it is a maintenance item. But so are cracks. Like I said, I think I used the wrong stuff ('cause it was cheaper). Sika is the brand that I'll use next time. It's more expensive, but I think their stuff is the best.

Dirk your pool is just beautiful!! LOVE, LOVE the water color! It looks so nice with your stone color. I think you must have described what you wanted to the saleslady perfectly. My pool is going to be a vinyl liner vs. gunite. I'm in Michigan where gunite is the exception and vinyl is the norm. We have such a freeze/thaw cycle which makes vinyl a more practical choice (from what I understand). If I were picking a plaster color I would go with something very similar to yours....

Regarding our saw cuts, it seems that our PB is having a hard time finding someone who will even come over to take a look (go figure). Not sure what's going to happen at this point. Still trying to remain positive and hopeful that, like yours, our situation will somehow work out even better than we'd hoped. I guess we're at the point where if it is unable to be fixed and the original cement company (Vince) refuses to tear out and redo, we just won't be paying for it? Not sure how that will go over but that's where we're at. Thank you for taking the time to post the pics of your expansion joints, will be super helpful when/if we get to the point of having to choose options.

Dirk that pic of your pool........................whoa doggy that is pretty!!! Love how rich it looks!

Those pics of the goo and stone are outstanding to show her how yours looks. Thanks for taking the time and effort to show what you mean in such a easy to understand way with pics at that!

Kim

Yes Kim, Dirk's pool is absolutely gorgeous! He, as well as many others on this site have been so helpful. Can't wait til this mess is behind us and all we need is help with our water!! I will be the happiest person ever when I'm to the point of ordering my TF-100!!

 

[mknauss]

I will be the happiest person ever when I'm to the point of ordering my TF-100!!

CyberMonday - 20% off! Order now!!!!

Just thought I would let you know -----

Take care.

 

[Dirk]

Thank you for your kinds words about my pool. It's just what I envisioned, but it was nerve racking waiting to find out if that was to be the case! The color is based on Tahoe Blue, a pretty common pool color from what I've learned. Do you get color choices with vinyl?

Regarding our saw cuts, it seems that our PB is having a hard time finding someone who will even come over to take a look

Just playing devil’s advocate...

That could be true, but that is also classic “contractor-speak” for “I’m working on another job right now and I haven’t had any time to deal with yours.” Not what you want to believe just now, I know. Just preparing you for worst case. Not that you asked, but if it were me, I would start calling concrete and masonry guys to line up my own solution. It’s winter! All the concrete and tile guys are booked solid? Maybe not. Find a guy yourself, introduce him to your PB, make it happen. You might have to take charge here. A bonus to that tact is that you can interview some number of guys that might offer a solution that nobody's thought of yet. If you go with your PB's guy, you're only going to get one slant, and maybe just the one the PB wants to pay for! Even if the PB insists only his guy does the work, maybe that work will be some great solution that your guys came up with. Win-win.

That’s what I did, and my pool is done. If I had waited for my pool guy to fix his mistake... I wouldn’t have any pics to share. In CA, I was obligated to give the contractor a reasonable amount of time to correct the problem (I gave him two weeks), then I was free to seek my own solution and charge it back to him. Give your guy a deadline, do it in writing, send it in the mail, certified letter. Describe exactly what you want done, and by when. Be sure to mention that should he not perform, you will litigate. (That is required in such a letter here in CA.) Best case, and a real possibility still, is your guy will then get off his butt and finish your pool. Nothing says “I mean business!” like a certified letter. That is the universal message for “You’re about to get sued!” Remember, this guy will string you along only if he thinks he can, and my gut says he is doing just that. This is what they do. Multiple jobs running, over booked, under funded. It is very common. And remember, too, you may not have to sue him, for now he only needs to think you will...

Here's another possible resource. CA county court systems universally offer some sort of free small claims court advice. Someone to advise you about your rights and responsibilities in pursuing something like this through the court system. In CA there are specific things you must do in advance of a court hearing. I know this is not something you want to contemplate, but you could arm yourself with some knowledge, and take a few steps now that you might be grateful for later, if your county offers something like that. It's what I did, and just the thoroughness of my presentations to my pool guy, all in certified letters, got him to blink. That's how I got him to make his first proposal. Now, he's mine. He knows I'm ready to sue him, and now he wants to deal, and to come and finish the original job.

I could tell you stories... I've been through several contractors since I moved to my new home. One guy took EIGHT MONTHS to finish a minor kitchen cabinet remodel. It actually became comical to me after a while (after the initial stress wore me down). Some of his excuses were so cliche it was unbelievable that he used them. But like I said, this is what they do. And this is why I am so sympathetic to your situation. I know exactly what it is like to rationalize their behavior, to be worried about p-ing them off so that they never come back, or end up doing crummy work. To pretend that their excuses are real, that they really will be done in "just two more weeks." They rely on that. They will shuffle their customers, saying whatever they need to say to keep their juggling balls in the air. They will concentrate their primary efforts in only two places: on the customers that haven't paid them yet for their work (they need that income) and on the customers who rag on them mercilessly. Everybody else goes to the back of the line. You said you've paid him 75%, right? Chances are, he's already made his profit. The 25% left will likely just cover the expenses of the remaining work. There’s no more money in this for him. To pay his mortgage, or buy his kids Xmas presents, he’s got to get someone else to pay those first draws, or that up-front deposit. And in his mind, your wanting more out-of-pocket work that he now has to pay for! Nope, he’s already on to his next jobs, and he’s going to come back to yours when it suits him. Think back, has the rate of progress been steady throughout, or did it slow down the more you paid him? Didn’t you say you might now have to wait until spring for him to finish? Who’s idea was that? Guess where you are in line? Time to start ragging! Sorry, that's harsh, but you can tell me to shove off if you want to, no harm, no foul. The problem for people like you and me, is that we are genuinely nice people, who tend to do the right thing. It is incredulous to us, and disheartening, to come to grips with the fact that there are those out there that are just not like that.

Now, I may have this all wrong. I only have the story as you've told it. Use any or none of this. You know what's going on there. I'm only guessing from your snippets. I'm only sharing to give you something to think about.

OK, I have to get down off my soap box now, the air is too thin up here!

 

[kimkats]

There is NOTHING like a certificate letter to make someone blink!

Kim

 

[Dirk]

On a much more positive note, check these out (especially if you haven't picked a color yet):

http://www.taraliners.com/blog/entry/the-basics-of-water-color

http://www.taraliners.com/blog/entry/how-to-choose-a-vinyl-liner-1


Turns out my guess was right about the blue color, and why my steps look grayer. One of the articles also points out the affects of contrast between the water color and the surrounding materials. Which is why my water color pops against that stone. And I have a lot of plants and trees around my pool, which also adds to the aqua color. I lucked out, I got what I wanted without knowing all this stuff up front! Mostly thanks to the previous owners. I picked my water color to match what they had done, so I had a jump start on what it would look like. I already knew what it would look like!

 

[Tenamarie123]

Okay so quick update: PB is coming over this week with another cement contractor who he believes will be able to "fix" and "make pretty" these saw cuts. Fingers crossed that all works out, where we are happy, they pay for the fix and project can move forward. Thank you all for your kind words, support and valuable information you've provided me. I will let you know how this turns out and will take pics of the final product.

 

[Dirk]

PB is coming over this week with another cement contractor who he believes will be able to "fix" and "make pretty" these saw cuts.

Yay! Fingers crossed!

 

[Nectarologist]

Okay so quick update: PB is coming over this week with another cement contractor who he believes will be able to "fix" and "make pretty" these saw cuts. Fingers crossed that all works out, where we are happy, they pay for the fix and project can move forward. Thank you all for your kind words, support and valuable information you've provided me. I will let you know how this turns out and will take pics of the final product.

That's good to hear. My .02 is if they don't offer you a satisfactory solution call your own mason (not just a cement guy). You can get an idea and quote on how to bring it up to your standards. Know that by the summer you'll be floating in the pool glad it's over and enjoying it.

 

[kimkats]

Oh that is a step in the right direction!!

Kim