Sheer Water Features, not working like they should.

[Texas Ranger]

3306,

Where are you in the construction stage??? If you already have completed the gunite stage, it it too late.

Jim R.

Jim,
I see your location is Bedford. I’m in Keller, just down the road from you. I’m having an issue getting pressure to a newly built water sheen. I had three sheens installed in a new wall. The two sheens at either end work just fine, even at low RPM in a 3HP Intelliflow3. The middle sheen is my problem. It is raised about 6” higher than the other two. Even maxed out at 3450 RPM, it’ll flow, but not like the others, even then that’s closing my return and making my pool look like tidal waves. Any suggestions? If you want to stop by to put eyes on target, I’ll cover your gas lol

 

[Jimrahbe]

TR,

Water will take the easiest path back to the pool. It is easier to go through the lower sheers.

You should have individual valves on each sheer so that you can adjust their outputs to match.. So, basically reducing the water going to the lower sheers and increasing the water going to the upper sheer.

They often use ball valves close to the water feature.

Let's see what Mark has to say.. Calling @mas985

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[mas985]

What he ^ said!

The lower the RPM/GPM the more of an issue you will have.

Is the same pump used for circulation/filtering as for the sheers?

How many feet of sheer do you have?

What is the elevation above pool water for each sheer?

Do you have automation?

A signature with equipment would be helpful.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Thank you both. I’ll update my signature block, so thanks for the feedback. So, this was a remodel to a year-old pool where I added a wall with three waterfalls, as I mentioned. While the initial pool was being built last year, I had one single pvc pipe pre-plumbed to add a water feature at later date, which was just completed. From this one 1 1/2” pvc pipe, it was split to run the three sheers. I have a 3HP IntelliFlo, which is approximately 20-30’ away. The furthest sheer away from the pump is solid, no issues. I’ve attached a picture and video for reference. The same pump, and only one I have, operates everything. I do have a 1/3 JP booster pump that is tied to a suction side cleaner but I’ve never used it, as I have a robot cleaner and hate that booster pump noise, so it’s really a dead line.

The elevation above the pool from each sheer is appx 24” on each end and appx 30” in the middle.

All this said, can I put a valve on the end water sheens to make the pressure less in order to give the center one more pressure?

Thanks again for any and all suggestions.
Please see attached.

TR

 

[Texas Ranger]

Is this the type of ball valve we could place just before each lower sheen to help drive pressure to middle sheen? Just close it slightly on each side?

 

[Jimrahbe]

TR,

I am not a waterflow expert, but I would have to assume the pipe from your equipment pad should have been much larger than 1.5"...

At this point, I think your only option is the add the additional valves, or maybe abandon, or lower, the middle sheer..

I have a waterfall wall that I really just had to have. It was fun for about 10 minutes.. I have not used it for the past several years..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate the advice. I don’t mind lowering it. Before I do that, the ball valve picture I posted, is that what you’re referring to? If so, install one on each of the lower sides, just before reaching the sheens inside the wall? Sorry, this has been driving me bananas. I do like having them run at low speeds during the day as a form of relaxation, so trying to explore all options, within reason of course.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TR,

We do not normally recommend ball valves at all, because after a couple of years they seize up and can no longer be turned. That said, 20 billion pool builders install them every day... The only good news is that once set, so that your sheers match, you really should not need to change them again.

A better, but more expensive choice would be Jandy style 2-way valves... but, ball valves will work..

Yes, add them to the lower sheers so you can restrict their flow..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Thank you, Jim. Last question and I’ll leave you alone: can I place those Jandy 2-way valves at the end of the each lower sheer inside the wall instead of the traditional ball valve? Just making sure I can use those inside the wall. Once set, hopefully I won’t have to break in the wall again. If so, I’ll try this and see how it all works. Would it be a the 1 1/2” -2” Jandy? I have 1 1/2” piping. Thanks for that info. Much appreciated for your advice and help.

TR

 

[mas985]

From this one 1 1/2” pvc pipe, it was split to run the three sheers.

Sheer descents generally require about 12 GPM per linear foot. From the pictures, it looks like each is about 3'? So that would be 36 GPM each or a total of 108 GPM. The problem is that 1 1/2" pipe will have much too much head loss to get anywhere close to 108 GPM. The appropriate plumbing would have been a 1 1/2" pipe for EACH sheer descent with a valve at the equipment pad. Plus the sheers should be on a separate pump given the flow rate requirement.

Using a 2-way valve to restrict the lower two outer SDs is not going to really solve the fundamental problem of too small of a pipe. It will equalize the flow rates but even at full speed, it isn't likely to look like it should. More of a dribble than a sheet.

This is what they should be looking like:



Yours look like they are just dribbling out:

 

[Jimrahbe]

TR,

If they will be inside the wall, where you have to break it open to adjust them, then I'd use the ball valves...

My thought is to restrict the flow of the two lower sheers and see how that works. If you are still having issues, then I would make all three sheers the same height.

Your basic problem is that you are trying to run 100 different things all at the same time from one pump... With small pipes.

It may be too late for this idea, but you might plumb it so that you can shut off the two lower sheers and just run the upper sheer. If you did that, then I would use the Jandy valves and leave them exposed on the back side of the wall.. then you could run the single sheer most of the time, and turn on all three when you wanted to impress your guests.. (Edit.. Or per Mark, not impress them... )

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Sheer descents generally require about 12 GPM per linear foot. From the pictures, it looks like each is about 3'? So that would be 36 GPM each or a total of 108 GPM. The problem is that 1 1/2" pipe will have much too much head loss to get anywhere close to 108 GPM. The appropriate plumbing would have been a 1 1/2" pipe for EACH sheer descent with a valve at the equipment pad. Plus the sheers should be on a separate pump given the flow rate requirement.

Using a 2-way valve to restrict the lower two outer SDs is not going to really solve the fundamental problem of too small of a pipe. It will equalize the flow rates but even at full speed, it isn't likely to look like it should. More of a dribble than a sheet.

This is what they should be looking like:

View attachment 562648

Yours look like they are just dribbling out:

View attachment 562652

Thank you for sharing your expertise, mas985 an Jim! At this point, I can’t dig up my yard and lay new pvc. From what it sounds like, I’ll try adding the 2 ball valves ant each end of the lower SD’s and if those don’t work, lower the middle SD.

Outside the Lowes’ and Home Depot ball valves, any particular brand y’all would recommend inside the wall that should hopefully be less problematic?

Appreciate the dialogue and assistance with this issue!

TR

 

[kimkats]

I am in to watch and learn what works or does not work. You got some solid advice from the others!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Outside the Lowes’ and Home Depot ball valves, any particular brand y’all would recommend inside the wall that should hopefully be less problematic?

TR,

They are all about the same.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Texas Ranger]

I am in to watch and learn what works or does not work. You got some solid advice from the others!

Indeed. Glad to have the wealth of knowledge from everyone. As I learn more, I’ll share my experiences as well, to include feedback on how this project turns out.

 

[Texas Ranger]

TR,

They are all about the same.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks, Jim. Much appreciated! Will follow-up w/everyone once complete.

 

[ajw22]

Is there a route you can run one or two additional pipes from your equipment to the sheer wall?

 

[Texas Ranger]

Is there a route you can run one or two additional pipes from your equipment to the sheer wall?

There is, but going to be costly and I have river rock in my yard around pool. Would be a mess.