Sanitizing pains. Tried SWG, Liquidator, chlorine tablets and bleach. Tired of fighting. Need help. Thinking Ozonator

[mguzzy]

Ironically the search for a new cell is what led me to find this forum 5 years ago. .. I had got 9+ years out of the first cell and the advice I got was "well if the first one worked that well just get another" so I did. and I just found the best price I could on an OEM Hayward cell. The price landscape has changed a little since then.. but the math is the same. I paid a little more for a replacement OEM cell, I searched the pool parts websites and worked the sale and rebate to my advantage. This is actually a good time of the year to be price shopping.
Here is my original thread from back in the day..
Need advice on replacement for SWG - Hayward T-CELL 15

 

[Saturn94]

Ironically the search for a new cell is what led me to find this forum 5 years ago. .. I had got 9+ years out of the first cell and the advice I got was "well if the first one worked that well just get another" so I did. and I just found the best price I could on an OEM Hayward cell. The price landscape has changed a little since then.. but the math is the same. I paid a little more for a replacement OEM cell, I searched the pool parts websites and worked the sale and rebate to my advantage. This is actually a good time of the year to be price shopping.
Here is my original thread from back in the day..
Need advice on replacement for SWG - Hayward T-CELL 15

OEM T-15 cells are much more expensive now than they were in 2015. I bought my current T-15 in 2015 and paid about $385. The same cell is now about $600.

Here’s hoping I get 7 years out of my current cell like I did with the last one.

 

[mguzzy]

OEM T-15 cells are much more expensive now than they were in 2015. I bought my current T-15 in 2015 and paid about $385. The same cell is now about $600. ☹

Here’s hoping I get 7 years out of my current cell like I did with the last one.

exactly my point... its not the same landscape as it was in 2015...its more expensive to get the parts, Amazon is a bigger player.. etc. If in a few years when its time for a new cell and the prices are still high, I'll probably jump ship to another manufacture completely. By that time that model will be more that 20 years old.. and ready for an upgrade to a newer design.

 

[Saturn94]

exactly my point... its not the same landscape as it was in 2015...its more expensive to get the parts, Amazon is a bigger player.. etc. If in a few years when its time for a new cell and the prices are still high, I'll probably jump ship to another manufacture completely. By that time that model will be more that 20 years old.. and ready for an upgrade to a newer design.

Oops, I misunderstood your post....my apologies. ?

I was a bit shocked when I looked up current cell prices. ? I did a quick look and it seems the other big brands are about the same.

 

[mguzzy]

Oops, I misunderstood your post....my apologies. ?

I was a bit shocked when I looked up current cell prices. ? I did a quick look and it seems the other big brands are about the same.

No problem.. I misunderstand myself all the time I think I read the price of the materials (ie ruthenium and iridium) that make the SWG work have sky rocketed so the cells are more expensive. In fact I just found a reference to the price jump in the TFP Wiki article:
SWG How It Works - Further Reading
Anyway.. the constant I noticed is the refurbs and 3rd party replacements tend to have a shorter lifespans. The shorter warranties mirror that to some extent.

 

[blairsooley]

Thanks for checking Saturn94. I just got off the phone with him and verified. All is good.

 

[chlorinatorpro]

As noted before we are less than two weeks away from receiving new cells. Whatever cell you choose just stay away from Platinum imo. They have scammed many in the past. Salt Solutions seems to be fine yet personally I always worry how they actually reseal the cell. But that's just me. Many other generics have cut the rated hours to 3000 hours hence their really inexpensive price and good luck contacting them. Yet Hayward just reduced the warranty on their T-15 to 1 year and they are still charging $599. Go figure.

 

[wireform]

I've spoken to the techs several times in the past regarding the construction of the cells. I was told the cell is of all US made materials to the exact standards of the original Hayward cells. I have two of them in the field going strong and you could have fooled me if you had put it in a Hayward packaging.

 

[etuser]

Ironically the search for a new cell is what led me to find this forum 5 years ago. .. I had got 9+ years out of the first cell and the advice I got was "well if the first one worked that well just get another" so I did. and I just found the best price I could on an OEM Hayward cell. The price landscape has changed a little since then.. but the math is the same. I paid a little more for a replacement OEM cell, I searched the pool parts websites and worked the sale and rebate to my advantage. This is actually a good time of the year to be price shopping.
Here is my original thread from back in the day..
Need advice on replacement for SWG - Hayward T-CELL 15

Where did you end up getting the OEM cell and how much did it end up costing? Thanks.

 

[chlorinatorpro]

I've spoken to the techs several times in the past regarding the construction of the cells. I was told the cell is of all US made materials to the exact standards of the original Hayward cells. I have two of them in the field going strong and you could have fooled me if you had put it in a Hayward packaging.

IMO, the techs know very little about where the parts are manufactured. They just parrot what they hear from executives above them. Guarantee you the cord, the injection molding, the plate housing are made overseas. The question has always been about the plates. Denora makes them for Hayward in Ohio. However the just the cost of the finished plates for 3000 hour T-15 cells that a lot of generic's sell is about $120 if purchased from Denora. Now you can start adding all the other costs above, plus assembly, packaging , freight, etc and pretty soon you are up to $200 COGS. Then you sell to a distributor like Pool Supply World for some margin and PSW sells it for $280? PSW is incurring selling fees in some cases such as eBay (13%) . It would be impossible for the manufacturer or PSW to make any money. We never even talked about advertising expenses, warranty expenses, customs fees, duties, insurance, and all the other costs that come with running a business.

That's why I call bullcrap (and have been saying this for many years) on the claims of cells being made of all USA materials. It's just a marketing claim that these guys know can't be investigated.

Now you see why most everything is made overseas (including all other pool equipment) . Costs are lower although getting more expensive each year. (I pay an extra $40 per cell for 7000 hour plates). Why do you think Hayward set up a facility overseas in Asia?

regarding Salt Solutions: since the only thing they would likely need to buy are plates, I can see them buying straight from Denora although since their volume wouldn't be that high the 7000 or 10,000 hour plates would be at least 1/2 the cost of their selling price. Everything else involves buying used Hayward cells or refurbishing customer's Hayward cells. Waterproofing seems to be amongst their biggest challenges imo.

 

[Andrew Pumariega]

HELP! Hi all, I have a plaster pool that I am tired of fighting to maintain the FC levels. This is Houston so we get 90s'/100's pretty regularly for months and my pool/hottub w/ spillover is in direct sunlight for most of the year. I use the pool calc and keep the chemicals good at FC 3-4, Ph likes to be high at 7.8 to 8 (a fight to keep low so I've settled on 7.8 as a goal), TA 80 (above that the Ph rises very quickly), CYA 40-50. My problem is the FC. I am the only one in neighborhood that fights with FC and am tired of it. Here's what I've tried.

SWG - The pool has a SWG, which was turned off when I purchased the house and has destroyed the coping around my pool (being replaced this year). It has been removed.
Chlorine tabs - I have a tab feeder. During the summer, on the maximum feeder setting it couldn't keep up with the demand and the CYA got to 70 so I had to turn that off. CYA is now back to 40 after the winter rains.
Hasa Liquidator - Was OK for the first year but a constant pain to fill with bleach. Second year all the fittings and adjustment valve failed. Replaced and they failed the 3rd year. It has been removed.
Bleach - Requires either a 6% 80oz bottle or 7.5% 105oz bottle daily. This is ridiculous as it is impossible to leave unattended.

Considerations
Ozonator (Eclipse 40 Corona Discharge) - A friend has this for a pool-only setup combined with low level chlorine from a tab dispenser and it works great, requiring almost no maintenance and very little chlorine. I saw a notice on this site suggesting Ozonator is not recommended for a pool. The only concern was that it leaves no residual chlorine. If this is paired with low level chlorine from a tab dispenser, would this be a good choice?
UV - A couple of friends have this paired with low level chlorine from a tab dispenser and also say there is little maintenance required. Bulbs would require periodic replacement.
Phosphates - A local guy who provides professional pool services typically uses phosphates, which he says reduced chemical usage significantly, thus allowing just the chlorine tabs
Skate park - Empty the Dang thing and give up (joking...kind of)

Thoughts are much appreciated?

Hi Blairsooley,

With alkalinity levels around 80 you shouldn't have a problem maintaining proper pH levels. 7.8 to 8.0 pH levels are acceptable for a day or two but if you consistently keep your pH levels at 7.8 that can be a problem. As for your stabilizer levels, I would run them a bit higher, somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-90 ppm. Also, have you tested your water for phosphates and TDS? High levels of either will eat up your chlorine.

So to sum it all up:

1. Lower your pH (lowering your pH is not going to help you with your FC problem, it's just a suggestion in general)
2. Raise your CYA (stabilizer levels)
3. Test for TDS and phosphates and treat for them if necessary

If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me whenever. Let me know how everything turns out.

Regards,

Andrew Pumariega

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!

1. Lower your pH (lowering your pH is not going to help you with your FC problem, it's just a suggestion in general)

Maintaining a pH in the 7's is fine. High pH only effects scaling tendency.

3. Test for TDS and phosphates and treat for them if necessary

TDS is meaningless. Some of the constituents of TDS matter, such as calcium, CYA, salt, but the overall number is of no use.
Phosphates are generally ignored in TFPC. They do not increase consumption of FC. Maintaining a TFP FC/CYA ratio is what is required.

 

[Andrew Pumariega]

Welcome to the forum!

Maintaining a pH in the 7's is fine. High pH only effects scaling tendency.

TDS is meaningless. Some of the constituents of TDS matter, such as calcium, CYA, salt, but the overall number is of no use.
Phosphates are generally ignored in TFPC. They do not increase consumption of FC. Maintaining a TFP FC/CYA ratio is what is required.

Hi mknauss,

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum and your response to my post.

One thing I wanted to expand on regarding your statement about pH. If you go by the book it's recommended that you maintain your pH levels between 7.2 and 7.6, however, if we're being very specific we should go by LSI and when you plug in your chemistry to an LSI calculator either your water will be balanced, scale forming, or corrosive. So a 7.8 reading is fine as long as your within the target LSI (+- .3). So that's really the only thing relative regarding that.

One thing I think worth mentioning here in regards to your statement about phosphates and TDS, that is more so an opinion or rather style of pool care that this forum may have adopted, however, not necessarily the pool and spa industry as a whole has adopted. Here in Florida, among pool professionals, manufacturers, and other experts in the industry, the consensus seems to be high levels of phosphates and TDS are bad for your pool in more than one way and one of those ways being FC consumption. If you have any data pointing to the contrary I would be more than happy to read through it, as 15 years later in the industry and I'm still learning something new all the time.

Thanks again for welcoming me to the forum!

Regards,

Andrew Pumariega

 

[Donldson]

Hi mknauss,

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum and your response to my post.

One thing I think worth mentioning here in regards to your statement about phosphates and TDS, that is more so an opinion or rather style of pool care that this forum may have adopted, however, not necessarily the pool and spa industry as a whole has adopted. Here in Florida, among pool professionals, manufacturers, and other experts in the industry, the consensus seems to be high levels of phosphates and TDS are bad for your pool in more than one way and one of those ways being FC consumption. If you have any data pointing to the contrary I would be more than happy to read through it, as 15 years later in the industry and I'm still learning something new all the time.

Let me also welcome you to the forum.

Let me get right to it: we do not go by "the book". That book is what sends so many here out thousands of dollars with unfathomably ruined water chemistry. We also don't put much stock in to what other professionals, manufacturers, or so-called industry experts have adopted. This is Trouble Free Pool and we have our own science based and verifiable methods. We aren't a platform for others to share their conflicting ideas, especially not such outdated and unsubstantiated ideas as TDS causing increased chlorine consumption. Does salt consume chlorine? No? Well then consider that debunked.

I would suggest you check out the Pool School link over on the left side. It might help you understand what TFP is all about. I can assure you, however, that while we welcome all to the forum we will absolutely shoot down bad or unsubstantiated advice. Just because you learned something a certain way does not make it true. You more than anybody should recognize the industry is full of awful ideas that date back decades and aren't changed because, "that's the way we've always done it". If you are here to learn and expand your own knowledge while sharing your experience, then we welcome you. If you are more interested in countering our advice, then that's not something any forum would welcome.

 

[Andrew Pumariega]

Let me also welcome you to the forum.

Let me get right to it: we do not go by "the book". That book is what sends so many here out thousands of dollars with unfathomably ruined water chemistry. We also don't put much stock in to what other professionals, manufacturers, or so-called industry experts have adopted. This is Trouble Free Pool and we have our own science based and verifiable methods. We aren't a platform for others to share their conflicting ideas, especially not such outdated and unsubstantiated ideas as TDS causing increased chlorine consumption. Does salt consume chlorine? No? Well then consider that debunked.

I would suggest you check out the Pool School link over on the left side. It might help you understand what TFP is all about. I can assure you, however, that while we welcome all to the forum we will absolutely shoot down bad or unsubstantiated advice. Just because you learned something a certain way does not make it true. You more than anybody should recognize the industry is full of awful ideas that date back decades and aren't changed because, "that's the way we've always done it". If you are here to learn and expand your own knowledge while sharing your experience, then we welcome you. If you are more interested in countering our advice, then that's not something any forum would welcome.

Hi Donldson,

My only intention for joining this forum was to share my 15 years of experience with people who need the help and to expand my current knowledge even further. My company services over 900 pools some of which are commercial accounts ranging from 1,000,000+ gallons, to 10,000 gallon residential pools. I have a ton experience I'm willing to share but if the only way I can contribute, is to follow a specific narrative set by the moderators, I'm not sure I can do that.

With all do respect Donldson, maybe you and the people seeking help on this forum are experiencing issues not because the book is giving out wrong information, but rather the information in the book is not being followed properly. I find it unlikely that the book works perfectly for me and my friends in the industry, but coincidentally not the people on this forum.

To your point on TDS, it depends what's actually causing the high TDS levels. I think it's worth me pointing out that phosphate and TDS levels rarely need to be addressed, however, when your company services over 900 accounts on a weekly recurring year round service, you get thrown into every scenario and sometimes you run into phosphate and TDS issues. It's not common but it is a real issue that needs to be addressed from time to time.

Also, another point I wanted to make regarding pH, health inspectors regularly monitor and test commercial pool water. If a health inspector were to test the water and the pH is 7.8, the pool is getting shutdown right then and there. Chained and locked up. If you continue to violate, you have to appear in front of a board of pool professionals and you could potentially lose your license. So, the only point I was trying to make originally was the moderator should have made it clear that his corrections to my post are his personal opinion rather then actual advice the industry as a whole accepts.

Regards,

Andrew

 

[Flying Tivo]

Andrew, again welcome to the forum. Probably it has not been pointed out to you that this forum is only for Residential Pool maintenance and the owner takes full responsibility for what they do to it. As you know residential pool are not inspected. I. would like to invite you to keep lurking around all. the info in the forum. If you wish to follow it great, if not, its also ok. If your info conflicts with what we teach in here, it will get pointed out.

Lets keep this post going for the OP and his problems.

 

[blairsooley]

Hi all. The Salt Solutions T-15 unit finally got delivered after 7 days, though it was sent 2-day priority with USPS. Packaging looks good and the quality of the item is fine. Installed with no leaks and started up with no issues other than it's reading 2800ppm rather than 3200 which I got with my new titration kit (the one recommended here). Is this discrepancy a problem or is there a way to set the unit to 3200? I followed the startup reset process using the diagnostics button on the CPU and it came up as 2600 but seems to be climbing throughout the day as now at 2900.

Here's my diag numbers
Average salt level 2900ppm (2700-3400)
Voltage 23V (22.0 - 26.0)
Amperage 5.56A (3.1 - 8.0) Outside operating range
Chlorine output setpoint 100P
Instantaneous salt level (-3000)

 

[ajw22]

Different ways of testing salinity gets different results. There is always some difference. As long as the cell is happy and generating you are good.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

FYI...The end point for the K-1766 salt test is different than other tests. The signal for the endpoint is the first change from yellow to a milky salmon (brick) red. Continuing until there is not color change can take one to two additional drops.

 

[blairsooley]

Rancho, when you say the 'first change', I completed this test both times and there was no noticable change until the entire sample went to wht I thought was a brick colour (maybe this was brown??), which happened at 3200. The instructions point out the first change is the indicator as well, and if you get to brown you've gone too far. I never did see the 'first' change. Do you just see the milky salmon colour for a second when the drop hits the solution but it goes away when mixed?