Rookie School of Hard Knocks

[Tylerlane]

Bought a house with a pool around Thanksgiving (my first pool), and have managed to create several problems for myself almost immediately. I could use some help.

Issues:

• Need a new pump
• Need priming tips
• Sand filter ok?
• SWG the right choice?

My main issue right now is some broken pipe and a pump due to freezing (waterfall pump and line). I know better, but was mistaken about sufficient draining and didn’t notice the pump drain plugs until it was too late. The pipe repair shouldn’t be a big deal, I’ve done plenty of PVC work. For the pump, I’m thinking I’ll use this as an opportunity to upgrade to VS. Both of my brothers have pools with Pentair VS pumps which they highly recommend, so I’ve focused on those. I’ve been reading up on SuperFlo VS -v- IntelliFlo VS. I’d appreciate hearing thoughts on pumps since, as you’ll read below, my system has some quirks. Also, I’d appreciate thoughts on the wisdom of moving the working single speed to the waterfall, and using the VS on the main line. I’m even willing to buy two VS’s, if that’s best. There is a separate smaller pump for the sweeper that doesn’t work, but the previous homeowner bought a robot instead of fixing it. I could move the current main pump to that spot.

The major quirk of my system that will help with advice: the pumps sit at least 5’ above pool level. When the pumps turn off, everything wants to drain. To minimize that, check valves have been installed by the pumps to try to hold the water in the pipes. The checks in some lines seem to seal (and work) better than others. Anyway, priming the pumps is incredibly difficult once the system drains. There is probably a better way, but what I’ve done to prime so far is wrap a rag around a hose, and shove it in a strainer drain. (I have two strainers, one for the main pump and one for the waterfall pump.) Once I see water in the pump, I kick it on. I can (or could) get the waterfall going that way fairly easily, but the main pump, not so much. I’ve accomplished it once on the main pump, but after the freeze I did a thorough drain when another cold snap was coming, and I can’t now get it going again. Thoughts on priming?

Somewhere in this mix of challenges, the sand filter started creating more resistance. When we moved in, the pressure would be 20-24 psi. Now, no matter how long I backwash, I can’t get it below 30 psi. I’m lost on that one?

Last area of questions: SWG. I had the PB come inspect the pool when I was having the home inspection done before purchase. (The pool is a 2001 build.) He noted that the pool had been converted to SW, and recommended I go back to chlorine. The deck and pool edge are flagstone, and the waterfall is also natural stone. He said the SW would destroy all the stone. He’s been at this a long time obviously, and is very reputable, but I believe I am reading in this forum that damage to rock by SW is largely a myth? And final question, since I have a 40,000 gallon pool and a SWG rated for 40,000, I presume that means I need to run the pump on the SWG a lot (all the time?). Does that mean a VS pump would be a waste of time since I need to circulate so much water?

Thanks to everyone who reads all that and takes the time to help!

Lost in pool confusion,
Tyler

 

[Jimrahbe]

Tyler,

Welcome to TFP.. a great place to find answers to all your pool equipment questions...

I'll start with the SWCG... Most things you hear about saltwater pools are myths based upon distorted facts...

If you run water across rocks, bad things will eventually happen, whether it is saltwater or not. It is much more likely that high pH is what causes any rock damage. Saltwater pools tend to have higher pH. But, I believe that the main problem is that many pool owners don't manage their pool chemicals at all, as long as the pool is not green, so high pH goes undetected for long periods of time.

I personally will never, ever, have a pool that is not a saltwater pool...

For a 40K pool, you need to have an 80K Salt cell... (As far as I know they do not make 80K cells..) This is because cells are rated when running 24/7 at 100%. So with your current set up, you will have to run your main pump 24/7 and set the cell at 100% output in order to generate the amount of chlorine you will need, as least in the summer time.

Having a salt system is the best reason to have a VS pump... the cost to run at a low rpm is pretty cheap.. For reference.. I can run my IntelliFlo at 1200 rpm, 24/7, for less than $20 bucks month!!!

I think you have bought into the myth that you have to circulate "all" the water in the pool x times a day. It is just not true. Water is sanitized by the chlorine in your pool, not the number of times it passes through your filter. A VS pump works great no matter what size pool you have...

Not sure I can be much help on your other issue except to say that in a normal system, check valves to prevent the water from draining back into the pool, are not needed. Sounds to me like the previous owner could not find the actual problem and added the check valves as a short cut.

That said, if the water is draining past the check valve, then the check valve is bad or is being kept open by something inside.

I think you will get some better answers if you can post a couple of pictures of your equipment pad tomorrow..

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[Tylerlane]

Thanks Jim!

Makes sense that the VS pump is a good choice for a SWG since flow across the cell is needed and doing it at a lower speed will save bucks.

As for the check valves, the big challenge is they are trying to hold the water in the pipe behind them, not in front like a check normally does (if that makes sense). The water wants to drain back into the pool because the pool is lower than all the pumps, and the check valves have to seal against the vacuum created by the “falling” water. (The checks are up by the pumps on the suction side.) I don’t think there is anything broken, it’s just the consequence of pumps up the hill from the pool.

Ill go take pics and post them in a second.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Tyler,

Just like sticking your thumb over the end of a straw and pulling the straw out of a glass of water, the water will stay in the straw. Let your thumb off the end of the straw and the water pours out.

Your pool basically operates the same way. If no air is allow in, the water will not drain back into the pool. It won't stay in there forever, but certainly long enough for the pump to easily prime the next day.

Check valves get old and do leak.. And, not all check valves are equal. If the water drains back into your pool, when the pump is off... something is wrong..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Tylerlane]

The little pump tucked up by the sand filter is the sweeper pump...it doesn’t work. The plumbed-in Hayward works, but that’s the one I’m struggling to prime. The closest pump is the one that froze. Side mystery, the damaged concrete in front of the frozen pump happened during the freeze that broke the pump. The concrete develop an anthill. It was powdered concrete. Maybe the cracked pipe dripped some water and it somehow saturated the concrete, froze, and puffed up an anthill? Never seen anything like it.


This shows the elevation change I’m fighting. The equipment pad is up behind the panelled add-on to the house.

- - - Updated - - -

Jim,

10-4. Do most systems seal so well that the checks shouldn’t even be necessary?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Tyler,

A couple of initial thoughts...

1. That is a very nice looking set up...

2. The little "Booster" pump is for a pressure side cleaner, which you do not need because you have what looks like a Dolphin Robot... Just forget this pump for now..

3. I'd leave the waterfall pump disconnected until you get the main pump running.

Looking at your main pump, I can see that it is sucking from two check valves...

1. One check valve makes a little U-Turn and goes straight down.. Do you know where this pipe goes???

2. The other check valve goes over to a Jandy valve...

a. One of the pipes going into the Jandy valve has an "R" on it in your pic.. Do you know where that pipe goes???

b. Where does the other pipe into the Jandy valve go? Are they marked at all?


Just trying to understand how your system is plumbed and what we can do to troubleshoot it...

The number one reason a pump will not prime is an air leak caused by the O-Ring under the pump lid being damaged and/or not lubed. Have you inspected the pump lid O-Ring and is it lubed?

The number two reason is leaking connections or valves in front of the pump. I would open both Check valves and inspect and lube the O-rings as well as ensure that none of the screws are stripped. While in there, I would inspect and clean out the check valve itself.

It is hard to see in the pic, but where does the water go after coming out of your SWCG??? Another pic from that end would be great.

Does the multiport on top of your filter have a By-pass or recirculate position? I am not a sand filter guy, but 30 psi seems awful high to me.

Thanks for now,

Jim R.

 

[Tylerlane]

Tyler,

A couple of initial thoughts...

1. That is a very nice looking set up...Thanks! We’re excited for pool season for sure!

2. The little "Booster" pump is for a pressure side cleaner, which you do not need because you have what looks like a Dolphin Robot... Just forget this pump for now..

3. I'd leave the waterfall pump disconnected until you get the main pump running.

Looking at your main pump, I can see that it is sucking from two check valves...

1. One check valve makes a little U-Turn and goes straight down.. Do you know where this pipe goes??? My working theory is it goes to one of three drains in the pool. Been too cold to jump in and confirm.

2. The other check valve goes over to a Jandy valve...

a. One of the pipes going into the Jandy valve has an "R" on it in your pic.. Do you know where that pipe goes??? The previous home owner said it meant “R”ight drain; however, when I shove a hose in one of the skimmer drains, this is where it comes in.

b. Where does the other pipe into the Jandy valve go? Are they marked at all? The other line has a “C” on it, which I believe is supposed to be “C”enter drain. Again, haven’t confirmed drains.


Just trying to understand how your system is plumbed and what we can do to troubleshoot it...I appreciate it!

The number one reason a pump will not prime is an air leak caused by the O-Ring under the pump lid being damaged and/or not lubed. Have you inspected the pump lid O-Ring and is it lubed? O-ring looks fine, but could use some lube. No obvious reason it would leak, but as you’ve now educated me to understand, air is getting in somewhere.

The number two reason is leaking connections or valves in front of the pump. I would open both Check valves and inspect and lube the O-rings as well as ensure that none of the screws are stripped. While in there, I would inspect and clean out the check valve itself. Check valves are in good shape. (I just went and checked them all to confirm.). After the first freeze, I opened all the checks to makes sure the system completely drained. It’s that move that I have never recovered a prime from.

It is hard to see in the pic, but where does the water go after coming out of your SWCG??? Another pic from that end would be great.

Does the multiport on top of your filter have a By-pass or recirculate position? I am not a sand filter guy, but 30 psi seems awful high to me. I’m beginning to suspect the pressure gage was off. I know it is now, as it’s pegged to max pressure while at zero flow. I’m wondering if that froze too? Might have an issue with my manifold on the filter if so. I’d know in a hurry if I could ever get the pump going.

Thanks for now,

Jim R.

Sorry, still not a great view of the SWC discharge. There’s a fence that prevent me from getting a photo with everything in one shot. In short, it tee’s into two 1.5” lines that go to jets.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ok,

It is no doubt harder to prime a pump the further uphill the pump is from the water.. The pump has to "lift" column of water from the pool, all the way to the pump. What I find odd is that your plumbing configuration appears to be set up to make this as hard as possible...

As I see it in the pic, you have three open pipes for water to come into the main pump. So, in the empty place between my ears, it seems to me the set up is trying to lift three columns of water, all at the same time.

In most pools, you have a couple of valves in front of your pump, that allow you to select between the water coming from Skimmer #1 and/or Skimmer #2 and another valve that lets you select the Main Drain. Your pool may be different, but I would assume that the Jandy valve (where the R is) allows you to select between your two skimmers (You only have two right??) I would also assume that the other check valve (by the pump) is the pipe going to the Main Drain.

If this were my pool, I would set the Jandy valve (where the R is) so that only one of the two pipes allow water in. I would then want to close the always open pipe going to the Main Drain. I believe that the body to the Jandy check valve is the same body used for a standard Jandy valve. If it is, I would temporarily remove the guts to the Jandy valve feeding the waterfall pump and I would install it where the check valve is now. Assuming this works, it would give you the ability to shut off the Main Drain and only suck from one skimmer.

It might take a minute or two (I would not wait any longer) for the pump to prime..

Let me know what you think of this idea...

Thanks,

Jim R.

- - - Updated - - -

It can't hurt anything, and it might help your to understand the operation of each part of your system better..

 

[Tylerlane]

Great tip on the Jandy valve...I got it going! The Jandy valve did indeed switch over to the check body, and shutting the main drain was key.

In addition to the Jandy valve change, I went to Lowe’s and bought some PVC parts that let me keep the hose in the skimmer without needing a rag and a helper. I can now do the job by myself. I think I can even repeat the process when needed.

Silver lining: this has taught me a lot about my pool.

I do have two skimmers, but one is on each pump. I suspect that is because the skimmer drain is the easiest way to prime the pump, so they hooked a skimmer to each one. (This appears to be an after build change based on the convoluted piping.)

While I was out I bought a new pressure gage. The sand filter now shows 18 psi, so that’s good news too.

Now, time to buy a pump.

Jim, thanks so much for the help. I appreciate it.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Tyler,

I'm glad you got it working... kind-of... The pump should prime all by itself, without any help from a garden hose or rag...

What happens later on when the power fails and then comes back on? How will the pump start by itself??

Well, since you plan to buy a new pump anyway, I recommend the 3 HP IntelliFlo.. as it will suck the paint off a wall, and should help with your priming issue, unless you have another problem we have yet to find.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Swampwoman]

Maybe I'm not a good reader today, but Tyler, did you mean that you were only having trouble priming after you'd opened up the system and let it drain?

My pump is a few feet higher in a pool house and that happens to me if I shut down and open the pump to clean the basket. I close all the valves, pour in a few jugs of water, tighten down the pump lid, start it up and immediately open the valves. That usually does the trick. No hose needed. Likewise, if I know I'm going to open the basket, as soon as I shut off the pump and before I open the lid, I close the valves to keep most of the water in the system.

 

[Tylerlane]

Priming isn’t bad if the pump is off for a little while. I honestly haven’t experimented enough with the system to know how long the pump needs to be off for trouble to start (or if it’s something I do that causes the challenges). This recent very difficult priming was for sure caused be me opening the system to be throughly drained, you read that correctly Swampwoman. That said, this isn’t the first time I’ve had to fight priming, just the first time to repeatedly fail at it.

As for the power failure scenario, I honestly don’t know. I’m confident with the help of this forum I’ll get it figured out though!