RETURN PIPE LEAK - NO TRENCH REPAIR/ PIPE RELINING

[minidolphin]

Hi, I'm wondering if anyone has experience or opinion on pipe relining / no trench pipe repair, to fix leak in suply pipe? There are some older forums about this in TFP, may be there are more to discus since then.
...The leak started small about 5-6 months ago when noticed damp area on the concrete pavers at the back of return pipe when the pump was on. No apparent water loss then. A few months later water constantly emerged from below the concrete paving even when the pump was off. Obvious water loss, water drop about 30mm/ month. Return Pipe size is around 30 to 35mm, definitely not 50mm.
A leak detector told me the leak was inside the pool concrete wall and quoted $ 6k-7k to repair a traditional way by digging and cut the concrete.
There is one company who could reline this size pipe and quoted $3.5k
Anyone can recommend someone to repair in Sydney area ? All inputs are highly appreciated, thanks all!

 

[ajw22]

Your mates may be the best to answer your question - @mgtfp @AUSpool @aussieta

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Re-lining of pipes here is usually only done for DWV pipes (non-pressurized). Anyone offering a relining service needs to confirm that their warranty covers pressurized operation. Also, the leak could be ata fitting or a glue joint … can the relining cover that?

 

[minidolphin]

Re-lining of pipes here is usually only done for DWV pipes (non-pressurized). Anyone offering a relining service needs to confirm that their warranty covers pressurized operation. Also, the leak could be ata fitting or a glue joint … can the relining cover that?

I will make sure to check that out with the plumber. Thanks

 

[AUSpool]

How did go with this?

I have no experience with leak detection so I’m only guessing. “A leak detector told me”, was that after any detection tests or just a conversation?

Your pool was fine and then developed the leak after relining and tiling? After it sat empty while the tiling was done? Is there any sign of movement of the shell compared to the pavers? Have you have any die detecting to determine if it is bulk pool water or return water? It could just be the seal between the outside of the return pipe and the concrete shell?

Do you have other returns and are they all on the one line? You could try a plug in that return for a few days to see if it dries out?

 

[PoolStored]

Re-lining of pipes here is usually only done for DWV pipes (non-pressurized).

This is generally true. Additionally, I was able to find only one company that could handle a 1.5" pipe within 750 miles of my house (and this is the USA). Most require a minimum of 2" pipe. They WERE willing to warranty a pressure line.

The other issue that you will run into, even if you can find someone to do 1.5" pipe and warranty a pressure repair, is that the cured-in-place pipe (CIPP) is very messy, and will be VERY difficult to preserve threaded ends. So, like in your case, the CIPP will come out the return and they will cut it off at the return fitting. Cutting it off inside the return and preserving the threads in the fitting does not have a high likelihood of success.

You best bet is a traditional repair.

 

[AUSpool]

I suspect we’re talking about a 1.5” (40mm) pipe. For a concrete and plaster (pebblecrete) or tiles it’s normally slip fillings. No threads. The eyeballs just push in. If you could find someone to line a 1.5” pipe the eyeballs won’t fit anymore.

If it was my pool I would be sceptical of how well the lining would work. Potentially a lot of elbows to get around and they may need to reline the entire line from pad to outlet. If there are multiple outlets how do they cut out the blocked off T intersections to ensure the other outlets have full flow.

We had a 900 stormwater relined and they did a smaller section down the road for a 200mm pipe. They had all sorts of drama with both but the smaller one gave them the most trouble. Bigger is better. They were back multiple times to fix it. And I’m not sure you can recline a reclined pipe. If it fails you’ll have to redo the lot.

 

[PoolStored]

If it was my pool I would be sceptical of how well the lining would work. Potentially a lot of elbows to get around and they may need to reline the entire line from pad to outlet. If there are multiple outlets how do they cut out the blocked off T intersections to ensure the other outlets have full flow.

The 90s are not an issue. At the pressures they use, it will easily navigate almost any pipe. The T's are an entirely different issue...no way to address any T's.

 

[minidolphin]

The T's are an entirely different issue...no way to address any T's.

Thanks PoolStored . Not that I disagreed...for discussion on the pipes layout I attached an areal photo which was editted with plumbing lines added. e White lines are pipes I can see, there are 3 of them, as they are laid on the concrete paving,(refer to the attached photo: 1 return, 1 supply & 1 drain/backwash). The orange and red lines are my best guess as they are invisible under concrete slab. Posibbly the red one (longest route option) is closest to the actual layout due to the angles (90 & then 45 degrees), if my guess was correct then there are only 2 bends under concrete on the supply pipe.
The other 2 pipes: waste & return, I think they run accross the grass area...so maybe there is no T junction from pool equipments

 

[PoolStored]

Not that I disagreed

I'm not sure there is anything to disagree about...If you are going to use CIPP and there are Ts in the line, there is no way to reline through a T and have the third leg be open.

so maybe there is no T junction from pool equipments

Dunno...they might be able to scope the lines before they reline and confirm.

We know that a traditional repair works.
Until you find a company that can perform a reline on 1.5" pipes, can scope the lines, confirm they can reline, and you figure out how to address the ends of the reline to maintain threads/connections, the point is mute.

I'm sorry you are in this predicament...it sucks. Luckily, the company that came out to do detection on mine found the crack in the skimmer...it wasn't an issue in the line.

I hope you find a workable solution...

 

[minidolphin]

I suspect we’re talking about a 1.5” (40mm) pipe. For a concrete and plaster (pebblecrete) or tiles it’s normally slip fillings. No threads. The eyeballs just push in. If you could find someone to line a 1.5” pipe the eyeballs won’t fit anymore.

Thanks Auspool. From memory it was about 30-35mm, I will get the exact measurement again when back in Sydney. And what it slip fillings, did you meant slip fittings? Yes it is correct, no threads. You're right that the eyeballs won't fit after relining. However we plan to use no eyeball as it is. When we bought the property there was no eyeballs on the supply. We haven't swum since we purchased th eproperty last year.

 

[PoolStored]

And what it slip fillings, did you meant slip fittings?

All your joints are slip fittings, like below...fittings they put together with glue and slide together are call SLP (slip) fittings...

 

[minidolphin]

I'm not sure there is anything to disagree about...If you are going to use CIPP and there are Ts in the line, there is no way to reline through a T and have the third leg be open.


Dunno...they might be able to scope the lines before they reline and confirm.

We know that a traditional repair works.
Until you find a company that can perform a reline on 1.5" pipes, can scope the lines, confirm they can reline, and you figure out how to address the ends of the reline to maintain threads/connections, the point is mute.

I'm sorry you are in this predicament...it sucks. Luckily, the company that came out to do detection on mine found the crack in the skimmer...it wasn't an issue in the line.

I hope you find a workable solution...

Thanks PoolStored. Good point, ah that's why the company that was willing to do that insisted they put the camera in the pipe first to inspect before doing the work. They did not explain much.

 

[minidolphin]

All your joints are slip fittings, like below...fittings they put together with glue and slide together are call SLP (slip) fittings...

View attachment 615209

Thanks. Yes this is the method used to join the pipes in our pool

 

[minidolphin]

All your joints are slip fittings, like below...fittings they put together with glue and slide together are call SLP (slip) fittings...

View attachment 615209

Thanks. Yes this is the method used to join the pipes in our pool

 

[minidolphin]

How did go with this? Thanks for asking and following this up AUSpool.

I have no experience with leak detection so I’m only guessing. “A leak detector told me”, was that after any detection tests or just a conversation? I used the word "told me" because I wasn't convince that he actually did the leak detection or just acting when using the sounds method. He advertised detect and fix leak (by trenching, jack hammering, etc). When arrived he did a dye test at the supply and skimmer pipes (spent only a few seconds) and told us the return pipe leaked (which we already knew as it was obvious) and quoted for a complete new layout from the pump to a new supply outlet location in the pool (1 outlet for $5.5k and 2 outlets for $7k). When I asked where exactly the location of the leak he said it's irrelevant as he'd build a complete new line. After our insistence he perform another test using sound detection method. However this wasn't convincing to me. The device was a bit like jack hammer, but electronic and he put on a pair of ear muff looka like and pointed that device to the wet concrete area near the supply pipe for a few seconds. That's it. Then he continued put pressure on us to book for the job. The sound detection device he used just one single device, with no cables nor monitor or other components connected to it, unlike I saw professionally used on the internet which involves cables connecting different components, a monitor and sound transmission device to transmit the sound from the concrete etc.. That's why I was not convince if the leak detection he performed was actually real but I could be wrong.

Your pool was fine and then developed the leak after relining and tiling? Yes, that's the chronological order. After it sat empty while the tiling was done? Correct Is there any sign of movement of the shell compared to the pavers? We did not check that unless we damage the stone cladding around the external wall of the pool I attached an image showing the cladding covering the pool wall on the other side of the supply wall. (excuse my lil lizard). Have you have any die detecting to determine if it is bulk pool water (what did you mean by bulk pool water?) or return water? Yes, the dye colour test was done, showing the dye was suck inside the return pipe. It was also a tell tell sign that this was a supply line pipe leakage when tiny bits of water squirted out continuously from the concrete paving behind the supply pipe when the pump was on. It could just be the seal between the outside of the return pipe and the concrete shell? There was no gap between the return pipe and concrete shell in the existing pool condition before we relined and tiled. the pool. It looked well built and solid around the pipe. It remained no gap when we did the tiling . To add the seal we tiled around the pipe as well (using epoxy grout), so there seems to be no gap there.

Do you have other returns No, only 1 return and are they all on the one line? You could try a plug in that return for a few days to see if it dries out? Very good idea Manythanks!