Recommendations for pump upgrade

[Hootz]

I have been trying to decide the best choice for a new pump. The existing pump (as I inherited it) is leaking at the pressure output; there is epoxy sealer slowing the leak but not stopping it. As I have an attached spa I need to keep my flow rate on the high end and is probably the reason the existing single speed pump is 2HP.
There are a lot of different opinions on how to size a pump and how to determine total head. It seems to me the most important to know is what will be the highest point of restriction. From the pool I have 3 suction lines 1 1/2 inch (main drain and two skimmers). From the spa I have (2) 2 inch suction lines. Returns are 1 each to the pool and spa 1 1/2 inch.
The max flow rate of my sand filter is 62 GPM and the heat pump is 60. Because of these flow rates I don't see any need for a high end pump capable of high flow rates but am not sure where to settle. I want to go with either two speed or variable speed for the replacement pump.
Do I need to measure the pipe lengths to determine total head or are the filter/heater flow rates my maximum gpm?

 

[peirek]

Hello Hootz and welcome to TFP. I will bump your thread and see if we can get some of the experts to chime in.

 

[CJadamec]

I'm going to suggest you go with a VS pump. With the spa and the heater in the mix being able to dial the motor to the right speed will be handy and save you a lot of money on the operating costs.

If you have automation get the pump that is most compatible with your automation. If you don't have automation then a Pentair intelliflo would be the standard recommendation for a pool such as yours.

 

[tstex]

I'm going to suggest you go with a VS pump. With the spa and the heater in the mix being able to dial the motor to the right speed will be handy and save you a lot of money on the operating costs.

If you have automation get the pump that is most compatible with your automation. If you don't have automation then a Pentair intelliflo would be the standard recommendation for a pool such as yours.

Hootz, Chuck recommendation below is a very astute one...I too vote for the Pentair intelliflo, but if you do have an automation controller, now is the time to let everyone know...good luck

 

[Hootz]

Thanks to all responses so far. I do not have automation nor a desire to use it in the future. I understand the intelliflo would be a good choice and I could dial it in to a rate compatible with my needs. However with mostly 1 1/2 inch plumbing most of the benefit of an intelliflo would be wasted. Possibly there is a better match for my needs. Plowing through specs and flow rate charts is pretty dry reading but a necessary evil. Another confusing issue is the manufacturers list several versions of the same model without much explanation of the difference.

 

[tstex]

Hootz,

You might want to list all of your piping sizes,# returns, # skimmers, distance of equip from pool and any elevation changes. And, it's always a little better to over spec than under spec...also, w a VSP, you can always tune her down for cost savings, but a lower spec'ed pump cannot be dialed-up at it's max performance levels

 

[Jimrahbe]

Thanks to all responses so far. I do not have automation nor a desire to use it in the future. I understand the intelliflo would be a good choice and I could dial it in to a rate compatible with my needs. However with mostly 1 1/2 inch plumbing most of the benefit of an intelliflo would be wasted. Possibly there is a better match for my needs. Plowing through specs and flow rate charts is pretty dry reading but a necessary evil. Another confusing issue is the manufacturers list several versions of the same model without much explanation of the difference.

Hootz,

I disagree with almost everything you say above...

In 'theory" what you say make some sense, but in actual practice, you just do not need to plow through spec or worry about plumbing sizes.. It just does not make enough difference to worry about...

I have two old pools that both have 1.5" plumbing and they both have the 3 HP IntelliFlo... They both work flawlessly. Just like you can drive your 300 HP car in a school and not worry about HP, you can do the same with VS pumps.. The HP listed is their max HP... in practice, you just use the HP you need. It actually costs less the run a large VS pump at low rpm, then it does mid sized VS pumps.. But not by much...

I guess my point is buy the VS pump you want based upon the quality of the pump, the brand, the warranty, whatever criteria you want, but HP is not what I would use to determine which pump to buy..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Hootz]

Hootz,

I disagree with almost everything you say above...

In 'theory" what you say make some sense, but in actual practice, you just do not need to plow through spec or worry about plumbing sizes.. It just does not make enough difference to worry about...

I have two old pools that both have 1.5" plumbing and they both have the 3 HP IntelliFlo... They both work flawlessly. Just like you can drive your 300 HP car in a school and not worry about HP, you can do the same with VS pumps.. The HP listed is their max HP... in practice, you just use the HP you need. It actually costs less the run a large VS pump at low rpm, then it does mid sized VS pumps.. But not by much...

I guess my point is buy the VS pump you want based upon the quality of the pump, the brand, the warranty, whatever criteria you want, but HP is not what I would use to determine which pump to buy..

Thanks,

Jim R.

Please allow me to respectfully disagree----:grin:. I do not disagree that the Intelliflo is a good pump. If I can continue with your automotive analogy: yes, there are high performance vehicles available to consumers and they can be driven mildly at slow speeds; but not everyone drives a Lamborghini or Ferrari because to some it is overkill. Owning a vehicle capable of speed way beyond the legal limit is not worth the extra expense to some buyers and they opt for the economy version or something in between. This is how I feel about using a pump way beyond my needs. If the Intelliflo was a one size fits all there would be no need for all the other models that are offered by Pentair, Hayward and Jandy. The biggest drawback to shopping a pump by spec is the charts are all linked to Total Dynamic Head. If the situation is like mine where one buys a house with an existing pool and the only information is what is visible to the eye the final result when estimating Head Height can only be a best guess. I know I am limited to 60 GPM because of my filter. I estimate my Head to be approximately 60 feet for the pool alone and the if the pool were closed off and the spa running only it is about 55 feet of Head. The Hayward pump that I have now specs to about 70 GPM at 60 feet of Head.

 

[CJadamec]

The car analogy in this case is a very poor representation in this case.

There are basically 2 size choices in VS pumps for pools. The 1.5HP and the 3HP. The interesting part is that throughout its entire pump curve the 3HP pump will move water more efficiently (use less electricity) than the 1.5HP pump. Granted at the low end this difference isn't all that much but in the middle and upper end of the 1.5HP curve the 3HP pump is going to far out perform the 1.5.

There is also a significant difference in the wet end of the 2 different sizes of pumps. The superflo simply can not generate the same flow at higher head levels that the intelliflo wet end can generate. The superflo VS is a one size fits all replacement for pools that would use a superflo wet end pump. The intelliflo is a one size fits all replacement for pools that would have a whisperflo wet end. To confuse things a bit there is a good bit of overlap between higher HP superflo pumps and lower HP whisperflo pumps.

To be more specific about your pool which is on the larger side of things, and has a spa, and heater you probably should have a low HP whisperflo single speed instead of your high HP Hayward superpump. The whisperflo would use less HP and get you the same water flow. So for your pool the better fitting pump is the intelliflo pump simply based on the equipment you have.

When you switch to a VS pump The pump head becomes a dynamic number based on the pump RPM and all the approximate numbers you have go right out the window. You need to look at the amount of flow you need and chose the pump that gets you there at the lowest rpm. Lets say you want 60gpm the intelliflo with get you there at around 2000 rpm and the superflo will be around 2600 rpm. So they will both get you there but the intelliflo will do it while consuming about 800 watts less in electricity.

So yes there are more bells and whistle on the intelliflo that you may or may not use but that's not the reason for you to buy it. The reason we recommend it for you is that it will run your pool at the lowest rpm and save you a significant amount of electricity over the superflo pump. It is the better fit wet end for your pool.

 

[tstex]

Quoting Chuck above:

"So yes there are more bells and whistle on the intelliflo that you may or may not use but that's not the reason for you to buy it. The reason we recommend it for you is that it will run your pool at the lowest rpm and save you a significant amount of electricity over the superflo pump. It is the better fit wet end for your pool."

This about sums it up for you hoot....again, the Intelliflo is more expensive upfront, but it's variable costs/unit are much less than the S-flo over time. Plus, you meet all your pools applications w one pump, so your spreading your fixed cost [purchase price] onto multiple applications, thus lowering your over cost / unit needed.

If device1 costs you $900 w an annual variable cost of $300, this = $1800 over 3 yrs, over 5 yrs = $2,400
If device2 costs you $600 w an annual variable cost of $500, this = $2100 over 3 yrs, over 5 yrs = $3,100

Now, does it really matter if device 1 has more bells and whistles? Furthermore, if you can eliminate the operation of another pump, that makes device one's ROI much more cost effective...Good luck, tstex

 

[Hootz]

Okay, I'm coming around....the arguments for the Intelliflo are valid. What model can be suggested? There are several versions. Also what type of circuit protection is available for this application? My current circuit leaves the breaker panel to a timer (won't need that) then to the pump.

 

[CJadamec]

The intelliflo VS 011018 is the base model all you need. Pentair updated this to the intelliflo VSF which is basically a superficial upgrade to the 011018. I believe they are phasing out the 011018.

Both will need 220V dedicated power and should be on a GFCI breaker. Your old timer will no longer be needed for the pump.