Raised Spa Losing Water During Freeze Protection

[UtexasChris]

This is my first winter with my pool and temperatures dropped into the mid 20's last night in Austin. The Freeze protection in the Intellicenter did kick in and do it's thing. However, when I woke up this morning, the system was on spa mode and the water in the spa was at the light niche (almost empty) while the jets were sending water into the spa with the air blower on (see pic). Luckily, there was enough water in the spa to cover the drain so the pump didn't suck air! I have since turned off the air blower freeze protection as I'm sure this contributed to water loss.

I checked everything at the pool pad and there was a small leak between the IC60 and Intellivalve but definitely not enough to explain how low the spa water was. Strangely enough, this leak doesn't seem to be leaking anymore but I attached a picture that shows where the leak was coming from. The IC60 showed it was turned off due to cold water. As soon as freeze protection moved back to pool mode, I turned on the spillway mode to refill the spa. I previously had a leak in the light niche but plugged it with butyl tape at start up and thought this was the culprit, but I don't think it is anymore as the rate of water loss before butyl tape was high and the spa seems to be holding water (or losing at a slow enough rate it's not immediately noticeable).

I monitored over the next couple of hours while freeze protection was still engaged and it did still appear to lose water, but wasn't happening very fast. My hypothesis is it might have to do with the constant switching between spa and pool modes every 15 minutes. When the system went into spa mode, I watched the valves turn and the actuated valve circled in blue moves faster than the intellivalve in green. This video shows the time delay between valves... https://share.icloud.com/photos/0c1-1kTejIqTGiWX-Sa64yETQ

I tested this theory by going from pool to spa and back to pool again (2 valve switches) and it seemed that the spa water dropped around an inch. If freeze protection switches every 15 minutes, that means 4 switches an hour or 2+inches an hour. I'm guessing freeze protection turned on around 8:30pm (or earlier) so it was probably running for at least 12 hours by the time I noticed the issue. This would mean 2+ ft of loss over 12 hours not counting water loss from the blower that was also in freeze protection.

Questions:
1) Do you agree this is my issue?
2) There doesn't seem to be a leak at the IC60 anymore. Would the fact that the IC60 was turned off due to cold water cause the leak? Any other ideas since it's not leaking anymore?
3) If I accurately diagnosed the issue, is there a way to speed up/slow down either the standard actuator or the intellivalve?

Any other suggestions/thoughts?

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• UtexasChris
• Oct 21, 2020

 

[ajw22]

Change one of the actuators so you have two matching types.

This seems to be a common problem and folks have it even when they have matching actuators.

It is caused by the pump running while the actuators are moving. There seems to be a few flaws in the way freeze protection is implemented.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Chris,

Set your system so that the pump shuts off when the valves move..

To be honest, I don't know if that function even works when in the freeze mode, but it would be worth a shot.

Jim R.

 

[flynwill]

Even if the pump is off water can still siphon from the spa drain to the pool drain through the suction control valve while it is in transit and both ports are open.

 

[Mr. Mike]

I am having the exact same problem. My pool is new so this is first year I am dealing with it. I spoke with Pentair rep and he said the spa typically loses some water whenever it goes from on to off and the constant cycling to protect the pump in cold weather results in a water level drop that is more significant. I think there is an answer around the check valve set up. I welcome any help. Thanks

 

[UtexasChris]

Sounds like we’re in the same boat, @Mr. Mike . I logged in to Intellicenter through a web browser and found the setting that allows you to turn off the pump while valves move. I checked the box and will have to watch it closely during the next freeze.

 

[ajw22]

Sounds like we’re in the same boat, @Mr. Mike . I logged in to Intellicenter through a web browser and found the setting that allows you to turn off the pump while valves move. I checked the box and will have to watch it closely during the next freeze.

Let us know if that makes a difference. I don’t think that selection is used with freeze protection.

 

[Jimrahbe]

will have to watch it closely during the next freeze.

You can run tests by simply putting your Air temp sensor in a glass of ice water..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[UtexasChris]

Does the logic only look at air temperature? I figured it would be some combination of air temperature as well as water temperature to kick on freeze protection?

 

[ajw22]

Freeze protection just looks at air temperature.

All the freeze protection implementations I have seen are very simplistic.

 

[Mr. Mike]

I thought I would game the system by setting my pump to include spillway when pool was running and to schedule the pumps to run during night when it is coldest with the thought that the spa will be drawing from pool to support spillway feature and each night this set up would re-fill the spa. Well, we lost power and the actuator was open and the spa drained completely! I do think the answer is in shutting pump down while actuator is moving or something like that. @UtexasChris let me know how that works for you. I would much prefer not having to mess with anything and just run the pump all night at low rpm with spa, spillway and pool all going.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I simply removed the Freeze Protect option from my POOL and SPA circuits and then created a slow skim circuit (pool pump only at low speed). Then I set freeze protect only to that slow skim circuit. When freeze protect kicks in it just runs the pump at low speed no spa. The chances of the spa freezing are so minimal that it’s pointless to rotate valves every 15mins. All that does is wear out the valves faster and, as everyone has noticed, drains your spa.

 

[Mr. Mike]

I simply removed the Freeze Protect option from my POOL and SPA circuits and then created a slow skim circuit (pool pump only at low speed). Then I set freeze protect only to that slow skim circuit. When freeze protect kicks in it just runs the pump at low speed no spa. The chances of the spa freezing are so minimal that it’s pointless to rotate valves every 15mins. All that does is wear out the valves faster and, as everyone has noticed, drains your spa.

I have not explored creating a circuit but need to figure that out. I agree with you. I’m in GA and the number of days we have hard freeze is few and far between

 

[H-12 1/2 Mike]

I had the same problem last year. What I did was to turn the spa freeze protection off but adjusted the Jandy valve (about 1/3 open for spa) so the spa had a continuous overflow while the pump was running.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I have not explored creating a circuit but need to figure that out. I agree with you. I’m in GA and the number of days we have hard freeze is few and far between

It’s not that hard to do and I only have an 4 line EasyTouch remote to do it. I think it’s even easier to do on ScreenLogic. Basically just create a custom name and call it whatever you want. Then you assign that name to a generic circuit and use one of the AUX circuits (ones not associated with a numbered button of the EasyTouch panel as those are relay circuits). Setup a speed for the generic circuit you created in the pump setting and then just make sure FRZ MODE is set to ON. Turn freeze mode off on any other circuit and then you’re good to go. When the temps drop below 36F, the pump will turn on and run at whatever speed you set. You could even associate your lights with freeze protect to let you know that the pump is running.

Like you, if we ever get a hard freeze, it typically only lasts a few hours and that’s it. Freezing temps overnight are more common but rarely do the air temps go below 30F unless there is an unusual weather pattern coming though. And those below freezing temps usually only last a few hours to. That’s not enough time to freeze water, especially high TDS pool water that has a depressed freezing point of several degrees anyway.

I had the same problem last year. What I did was to turn the spa freeze protection off but adjusted the Jandy valve (about 1/3 open for spa) so the spa had a continuous overflow while the pump was running.

I thought about assigning freeze protect to my spa overflow as I have a dedicated spa makeup return on the pool side of my plumbing but I was more concerned about water saturating the tile and grout and then freezing. I did not want to risk tile damage. Moving water doesn’t freeze but splash out in contact with cold stone and tile could easily freeze. I’d rather not pop tiles.

 

[H-12 1/2 Mike]

This is what happened to my pool/spa before turning OFF my spa Freeze protection. I now run a continuous spa overflow while the pool is circulating.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The Pentair freeze protection logic is very flawed. Cycling valves constantly every 15mins with the pump running at its full speed is just stupid. All it will do is drain down a spa and cause more potential for damage, not less. Given that they now sell IntelliValves with ability to move to multiple degrees of open position, one would hope that they come up with a more sensible freeze protect strategy. An idea would be a low pump speed with the suction set to the pool and the returns split 50/50 to the spa jets and pool. That would at least ensure all pipes are seeing moving water.

 

[UtexasChris]

I thought I would game the system by setting my pump to include spillway when pool was running and to schedule the pumps to run during night when it is coldest with the thought that the spa will be drawing from pool to support spillway feature and each night this set up would re-fill the spa. Well, we lost power and the actuator was open and the spa drained completely! I do think the answer is in shutting pump down while actuator is moving or something like that. @UtexasChris let me know how that works for you. I would much prefer not having to mess with anything and just run the pump all night at low rpm with spa, spillway and pool all going.

Ugh, that's brutal. I'm sorry that happened @Mr. Mike . I can verify that it DID NOT work for me. It appears the freeze protection DID bypass the setting that shuts off the pump when the valves move. We had freezing temperatures in Austin today and it seems I'm losing roughly an inch an hour with all of the valve movement. My next move is to use similar actuator types to see if I can get them to move at closer to the same speed. I was looking to see if there was any customization that can be done around how fast the intellivalve moves but don't see anything. This is the only thing I can think of to potentially address it. Any other ideas (other than turning off freeze protection)?

I also tried to freeze protect my "bubbler" water feature at the lowest possible RPM to make sure by pump #2 has water moving. The thought was pushing to the lowest setting wouldn't cause additional aeration that would increase pH. Although I set pump speed to 500RPM, it appears the freeze protection is also overriding this pump speed as the bubblers kick on at full strength

 

[UtexasChris]

I simply removed the Freeze Protect option from my POOL and SPA circuits and then created a slow skim circuit (pool pump only at low speed). Then I set freeze protect only to that slow skim circuit. When freeze protect kicks in it just runs the pump at low speed no spa. The chances of the spa freezing are so minimal that it’s pointless to rotate valves every 15mins. All that does is wear out the valves faster and, as everyone has noticed, drains your spa.

Thanks for the recommendation. What makes the spa much less likely to freeze than the pool? I'm still learning so apologies if I'm missing something obvious. Also, I had a feature circuit for my bubblers where I enabled freeze protection and the pump speed seemed to be overridden. Did you do something specific to make sure freeze protect didn't override pump speed on your feature circuit?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Thanks for the recommendation. What makes the spa much less likely to freeze than the pool? I'm still learning so apologies if I'm missing something obvious. Also, I had a feature circuit for my bubblers where I enabled freeze protection and the pump speed seemed to be overridden. Did you do something specific to make sure freeze protect didn't override pump speed on your feature circuit?

I should have been more specific - MY water is so less likely to freeze. Where I live, we simply do not get the hard freezes as in other areas and so water just won't freeze easily. If the water is moving from the pump running, then it would take a freak accident of nature to make it freeze ... which, I get in your case, as Texas was hammered last year with that winter storm + power outage. All I'm trying to get across is that you really just need to do the minimal amount necessary to keep the water moving and you'll be fine 99.9% of the time. The physics of water freezing in pools really indicates that most areas with annually open pools don't need to worry too much about it as long as minimal precautions are taken.

Pentair automation (il)logic is predicated on a few hard coded absolutes and one of those is - the circuit with fastest speed WINS! The automation allows you to run as many feature circuits and relay circuits active as possible. Essentially think of it as all circuits can be run simultaneously. So, in the case of multiple circuits running, say for example, POOL Mode is active and my custom programmed SPILLOVER feature circuit is active, how does the automation know what to set the IntelliFlo pump speed at ? It just picks the the highest speed. So, if you had FREEZE PROTECT enabled on your BUBBLER feature AND you left it enabled on POOL as well, then it will run the pump at whatever speed is fastest. The IntelliFlo also has it's own internal settings that will run freeze protect when it is in stand-alone mode but if your IF is hooked up to an EasyTouch automation panel, those settings are overriden by whatever is programmed into the ET panel ... or at least they should be.