Pump Upgrade, Adding a SWCG & Other Goodies

[ibcj]

Long-time lurker and a huge fan of TFP! Thanks to this collection of characters I've managed to keep my pool crystal clear with minimal work and money for the past 3+ years. You folks are all the best!

So my 1HP single-speed pump is getting very loud, appears to be leaking a bit, and is time for retirement. As an LA City DWP customer, I can get $1k rebate if I have a variable speed pump professional installed, and I figure while I'm in there, I might as well clean up a bunch of garbage from the previous owners and add some other goodies (namely, conversion to SWCG).

However, I have NO IDEA what I'm doing, so looking to get feedback from the peanut gallery here. I am a nerd with lots of home automation stuff already in place, so I'm looking to extend some basic control to the new pump and SWCG (my intent is to use my HA for override control and let something other than the HA maintain the regular pump+SWCG schedule).

SWCG Questions
* I originally spec'd a Pentair IC20 for my SWCG conversion, but the pool installer I spoke with cautioned me against buying any Hayward or Pentail SWCG. He strongly recommended the CMP 540 for easier maintenance and durability (which sadly I have not been able to source the CMP 540, so may go with the CMP 320, which should be plenty). The CMP will make my home-grown automation a little trickier (as I can only do external power on / off with the CMP), but should be a-ok. Thoughts or comments about CMP over Pentair or others?

* I understand why you'd want to put the SWCG after a regular gas-fired pool heater (minimize corrosion), and it seems to reason to put it after the solar heater (minimize any gas collection in the solar cells), but it is unclear if this is needed or not. A call to CMP provided no value on the topic. It would be much easier to put the SWCG before the 3-WAY immediately after the filter, but my hunch is that I should put it after the TEE combining both the direct return and solar heater.

* It looks like I should be able to remove the element of the CMP and just place a cap over the PVC that it sits in to effectively act as a bypass. Does such a thing exist? Is it included with the CMP? Will a 2" PVC cap work (how would it seal)?


Plumbing General
* Was planning to put 2" unions on both the pump and filter, any reason to not do this?

* Any reason to put unions elsewhere?

* There's an existing ball valve before the solar pool heater, was thinking to put one downstream before the SWCG. Any reason to not do this? I'm assuming this is for equipment maintenance.

* If so, should I use the cheaper ball valve (since it will be rarely used) or a more proper Jandy diverter (which I can rebuild)?

* Any reason to sprinkle more check valves or ball valves anywhere else?


Electrons
* My pool is old and likely not bonded, which is bad itself, but also may make an anode even less useful. My plan was to bond the new pump, SWCG, and a new in-line anode. Based on a couple of diagrams I found, the location between the pump and the filter seems to be the best place for the anode. I would have thought to put it after the filter, but [shrug]. Thoughts?

* I there a low-voltage output from the Superflow that I could use to trigger a relay to fire up the CMP whenever the pump is running? I see a voltage output on their pinout, but I suspect that it is always hot since it is intended to be the power source for triggering the various relay speeds.

* For my HA goals, I know I can get pretty far with the Superflo VST (late model) that I spec'd (using the RS-485 interface), but I don't see many options for integrating (read: changing modes, reading feedback?) from the CMP. If there's anything I should be considering, please advise!

* Every now and again I scour the interwebs for some kind of in-line pool chemistry detection, and it seems like there aren't many reasonable solutions. If this has changed, or I'm just missing something, please advise! Would love to have inline chemistry detection that I can hook up to my automation.


I really appreciate you folks looking over my novel-length post here. I expect zero replies but appreciate any insight provided. Thank you in advance. Now, please enjoy my crappy diagrams!

 

[dfwnoob]

Don't use ball valves anywhere in your plumbing, they are not appropriate for pool setups. You need to be using the proper Jandy-style valves that can be rebuilt. Ball valves fail and rather than spending 5 minutes rebuilding a Jandy valve, you're now cutting and replacing PVC and guaranteed it will fail at the worst possible time.

Most people here don't use anodes, but the general consensus is "they're cheap and probably not hurting anything, so whatever."

I'm trying to understand your new design. What's the purpose of the valve immediately before the SWG? I don't really understand why there is a ball valve in your current solar circuit either since it looks like it's right after a 3-way diverter.

 

[randytsuch]

So FWIW, I bought a Hayward SWG because it had a RS485 interface and I wanted to control it. But in the end, I'm not using the 485. I have a outdoor smart switch to control power to my SWG. I added sensors to read the LEDs on the SWG so I can get its status anywhere now. So no reason to use the 485 now. Probably paid a bit more for the Hayward, but its working well so I have no buyer's remorse there.

I have a Hayward VSP pump installed a few years ago. I control it via 3 relays. It has a 485 interface too, but I don't see any reason to use it. The relays work fine. The relays are controlled by an ESP8266 that gets instructions from my smart home program, Home Assistant. Home Assistant also controls the smart switch for my SWG, so I can go to one place and set my pool timers as I want.

Note sure if you can read the voltage coming from the pump as described, I suspect its there all the time if the pump has power. My pump is tied directly to power.

EDIT: There are guys here that monitor their pools
But using ORP with a saltwater pool may be difficult. PH would be fine. I planning to try reading ORP to see what I get, but not for control, just for notifications. PH in my fiberglass pool is easy so I don't need to monitor.

Randy

 

[ibcj]

Don't use ball valves anywhere in your plumbing, they are not appropriate for pool setups. You need to be using the proper Jandy-style valves that can be rebuilt. Ball valves fail and rather than spending 5 minutes rebuilding a Jandy valve, you're now cutting and replacing PVC and guaranteed it will fail at the worst possible time.

This is the advice I need! Thank you!

Most people here don't use anodes, but the general consensus is "they're cheap and probably not hurting anything, so whatever."

This is what I've gathered. Especially since I have virtually no metal componentry in the pool (no gas heater, no hand rails, etc. - only the ring around my light) it seems that I'll be lucky to get even a little bit of benefit.

I'm trying to understand your new design. What's the purpose of the valve immediately before the SWG? I don't really understand why there is a ball valve in your current solar circuit either since it looks like it's right after a 3-way diverter.

Good question! Not sure I know why TBH, but I suspect I saw it in the manual for "below grade installation" and I assumed for maintenance of the SWCG. Upon looking at this further, it seems for maintenance (of the SWCG or even the solar heater) I could use the 3-WAY after the filter to close off the equipment, then rely upon the CHECK VALVE after the SWCG to prevent backflow. Would this work? If so, then I just remove the new diverter from the equation.

And I don't understand why there is a ball valve after the 3-WAY and before the Solar Heater. It may have been for the convenience of installation, as it would prevent gravity feed of water from the solar to work backward when you want to work on the Jandy 3-WAY or when they installed the inline thermometer. I really have no idea - but open to suggestions for the why!

 

[ibcj]

So FWIW, I bought a Hayward SWG because it had a RS485 interface and I wanted to control it. But in the end, I'm not using the 485. I have a outdoor smart switch to control power to my SWG. I added sensors to read the LEDs on the SWG so I can get its status anywhere now. So no reason to use the 485 now. Probably paid a bit more for the Hayward, but its working well so I have no buyer's remorse there.

Great idea to read the state of the LEDs, I hadn't considered that. It also has an awesome "acoustically-coupled modem" vibe to it, which I dig! Which smart switch are you using? My whole house is Insteon (invested in this for life, hoard them even as the service has declined) but I've been looking at the Shelly's for control of devices like this.

I have a Hayward VSP pump installed a few years ago. I control it via 3 relays. It has a 485 interface too, but I don't see any reason to use it. The relays work fine. The relays are controlled by an ESP8266 that gets instructions from my smart home program, Home Assistant. Home Assistant also controls the smart switch for my SWG, so I can go to one place and set my pool timers as I want.

Which ESP8266 solution did you go with? I've been wandering around esphome.io and super impressed with what they have available. I'm also using HA for everything, so would love to get any input you have on configuration, components, etc. The majority of my systems is backed by MQTT, which is typically my goto path if possible.

Note sure if you can read the voltage coming from the pump as described, I suspect its there all the time if the pump has power. My pump is tied directly to power.

Yeah, amazing they don't have a "pump is running" lead. I'll keep digging.

EDIT: There are guys here that monitor their pools
But using ORP with a saltwater pool may be difficult. PH would be fine. I planning to try reading ORP to see what I get, but not for control, just for notifications. PH in my fiberglass pool is easy so I don't need to monitor.

Yeah, I think I'm going to back burner this one. Assuming I can get the SWCG dialed in well, then hopefully monitoring becomes more secondary. Currently, using liquid chlorine, my pH consistently drifts up and my jets are just "holes in plaster" so I haven't found a way to get any aeration into the water (no water features or such).

Thanks much Randy!

 

[randytsuch]

Outdoor wifi smart plug
I bought it planning to convert to tuya, but never did. I use tuya local instead. Hardest part of using tuya local is getting the key. I used a rooted android phone to do that part of it, but there are other ways.
I also bought a wyze outdoor plug, Its nice because the two outlets are independent, I use it to turn on and off my frontyard and backyard lights. But I have to control it through alexa. Not a big deal, but not my first choice.
Shellie would work too, have one of those. But it needs to be enclosed. Outdoor rated smart plugs are easy as long as you have someplace to plug them in.

With HA, its pretty easy to mix and match, you don't need everything to be Insteon. I have zwave, zigbee and wifi switches, plugs and sensors around the house.

I recently converted my ESP8266's to esphome. Its pretty easy if you've played with yaml before. I only use MQTT to communicate with my ESPs. HA supports an easier to use method, but I like MQTT. If HA dies, my MQTT broker can still run, and I have Node Red running a bunch of stuff that will still work without HA.

BTW, if you haven't tried it yet, mqtt explorer is the best mqtt traffic analyzer I've used.

These days I am buying mainly ESP32's in the mini d1 form factor. I used to buy ESP8266's in the mini d1 form factor, but the ESP32 does a lot more, and only costs a couple dollars more or so. Power is provided mostly using USB plugs, as long as you have AC nearby. I usually solder the power wires, but not always.
I have a couple sprinkler boxes with a built in AC outlet by the pool equipment, one for the spa ESP and one for the pool ESP. Larger than they need to be, but works.

I think I already said this, but I found it was really easy to control my Hayward pump with three relays connected to the four wires. With an ESP, relay board, and esphome via MQTT, shouldn't not take very long to get it working.

By coincidence, my SWG check light decided to flash this morning. I think it wants more salt, been trying to run at the low end of the salt range, but I may need to bump it a little higher. Its nice to know this is happening in real time.

EDIT: Keeping copies of my esphome files here. Think you will be able to see them.
I also have a couple DS18B20's installed in my pipes to read water temps. Code for them in the pool and spa ESPs.

EDIT2: You might get better answers to your plumbing questions if you could mark up a picture to show your plans on it.

EDIT3: I started looking at node-js pool controller Its what most people here use. If I was starting from nothing, I'd use it too. I started my system 5 years ago when I bought a VSP, and I didn't know about pool controller back then.
I'm thinking about running pool controller just for my swg, hopefully it won't be too hard to get it going. There is an interface to home assistant for it too.

Randy