Problem with DE Blowing through Sand Filter

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Bama Rambler said:
The reason I mentioned it is that we've had reports of problems with alternate media in sand filters. They seem to either work well or not at all. With a new install you shouldn't be having any problems. Especially not channeling of the media. If DE will go through it, there's definitely something wrong with it.
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Dang it...

So what is my next step ? Replace all the sand ?

Any other troubleshooting...could it be NOT ENOUGH media ? Could it be too much "pea gravel base" ?

Open to anything....
 
I would work with your PB. Seems if you are having an issue with a filter they just installed; I would allow them to address the issue before I started mucking with it.

With a glass media filter, do they still add a layer of sand or a finer grain of glass beads to them? I don't know, I don't have one and never have had one. Just asking...
 
techguy said:
With a glass media filter, do they still add a layer of sand or a finer grain of glass beads to them? I don't know, I don't have one and never have had one. Just asking...
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Nope...there is pea gravel on bottom layer then all "glass pak".

My PB says there is no problem and says all is fine. The DE working back into the pool is something you would never do and is expected and normal. However we all know he is wrong...

I've gotten no where with the PB, I am on my own.
 
If DE will work it's way through the media then debris from the pool will. It's hard to say what to do, but if the PB won't step up you may have to change it yourself. One thing you might do is contact the media mfg yourself and see what they say.
 
Bama Rambler said:
If DE will work it's way through the media then debris from the pool will. It's hard to say what to do, but if the PB won't step up you may have to change it yourself. One thing you might do is contact the media mfg yourself and see what they say.
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Good idea to contact the MFG, should have thought of that.

And yes indeed I BELIEVE debris is working its way through. PB says it is just "dirt" that is normal...however my pool is covered and no way that much DIRT gets in. It is the FINE DIRT that I am struggling with. So this is all making sense.
 
Arghhhhhhhhhh - don't like the MFG thoughts.

So they were VERY NICE I should say, and spend a good amount of time trying to help.

I was basically told that I backwash too much and I backwash the wrong way.

I am supposed to wait till 6LB in pressure rise or 6 weeks.

My backwash procedure should be BW 2.5 minutes then rinse 30 then BW 2.5 then rinse 30.

None of this makes any sense...
 
I just had another though...

If this "new media" needs dirt to make it work "better"...then my setup is BAD BAD. Meaning I have this PRE-FILTER Device that takes a huge chunk of the dirt particles out of it...leaving just the FINE PARTICLES for the Filter. Well if the Glass Media can't hold the fine particles until it has a bit of dirt...it will NEVER NEVER work ?

I think I might have figure out what the heck is going on.....
 
Our normal recommendation is to backwash when the pressure increases about 25% above clean pressure, so their recommendation seems close. However, no matter how often you backwash you should never get visible dirt through the filter.
I hope that's rinse for 30 seconds and not minutes! :shock:

I can't figure out why they recommend backwashing like they do. We recommend backwashing until the water in the backwash is clear. That's also common instructions from the filter mfg's too.
 
Bama Rambler said:
Our normal recommendation is to backwash when the pressure increases about 25% above clean pressure, so their recommendation seems close. However, no matter how often you backwash you should never get visible dirt through the filter.
I hope that's rinse for 30 seconds and not minutes! :shock:

I can't figure out why they recommend backwashing like they do. We recommend backwashing until the water in the backwash is clear. That's also common instructions from the filter mfg's too.
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Actually in my case 25% is 12 PSI and I explained I run at 10 PSI "clean". So 16 PSI is WAY over 25%

And yes....30 seconds.

I agree you should never get visible dirt...I am totally convinced that what GLASS MEDIA needs is a layer of DIRT to do the filtering vs. he actual media itself. Would explain why results are all over the board with this type of media.
 
OMG - so I contact MFG again to talk about my new theory. (i.e. with the pre-filter)

Now I was told that I need to vacuum to waste and that I should not try to vacuum this fine dirt through the filter as no filter would trap it.

So their solution is to vacuum any fine dirt to waste and my problem will be solved.

OR pour in 5-10 lbs of backing soda to force a pressure rise - that might help as well.

Man, all of this seems crazy...

Comments ?
 

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OK... if the filter cannot filter the "large" DE debris and it cant filter the fine debris... what can it filter? Baking Soda...? To do what? Vacuum the fine dirt? that is floating in the water that you are filtering into the filter that doesn't filter?

Who else can hear Ben Hill's Yakkety Yak playing while on hold?

Can you add a layer of sand on top of the glass? I would have assumed a glass fill would have a layer of sand on top of the glass pak.

Is the manufacturer assuming there is a layer of sand on top of the glass?
 
techguy said:
OK... if the filter cannot filter the "large" DE debris and it cant filter the fine debris... what can it filter? Baking Soda...? To do what? Vacuum the fine dirt? that is floating in the water that you are filtering into the filter that doesn't filter?

Who else can hear Ben Hill's Yakkety Yak playing while on hold?

Can you add a layer of sand on top of the glass? I would have assumed a glass fill would have a layer of sand on top of the glass pak.

Is the manufacturer assuming there is a layer of sand on top of the glass?
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yeah....I hear ya

no sand on top of glass...the GLASS PAK's CLAIM is that it is BETTER than sand...no headroom for that either. unless I removed a bunch of sand.
 
It sounds like about the same claims as this document I found when looking for information about "glass pack" filters.

http://www.lazydaypools.com/005.pdf

I found this line the most interesting since I am a DE filter user:

The DE Filter has held such a high ranking among pool owners for so long because it is capable of filtering down to 5 microns that customers were willing to overlook the immense expense and maintenance requirements of the DE Filter.
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I have bought one bag of media ($25) and cleaned the filter twice this season... with a garden hose in less than 30 minutes each time. It is difficult if I get a swamp ... but when is swamp cleaning easy?

Good luck!
 
toofast said:
Thanks...I think the KEY out of all of this is for those in the future who read this...STAY AWAY from any media besides GOOD OLDE SAND in Sand Based Filters!
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I think this is your opinion based on your experience with what appears to be a science project.

I have obtained excellent results using a sand filter and zeobrite. I pulled my Quad DE 60 out a month ago and replaced with a larger 30" sand filter and zeobrite. I still have the old (4 years old ) DE filter and will put it up for sale.

I will not be going back- I can discern no difference in water quality at all and maintenance is utterly simple quick and far cleaner.

I would bet that my environment is harsher than most in that I'm less about 1/4 mile away from the busiest freeway interchange in the US (10 and the 405) and have a tremendous amount of fine dust that settles in the pool. The installer made me sign a waiver because he didn't think it would work, ("nobody uses that here") and within a week brought over several people from his company to observe the water through the pool light in the dark.

I run a variable speed pump at 1000 watts for solar during the day and 100 watts the remaining hours for 24x7.
I get 20lb pressure at 1000 watts with the solar tap open, and 3lb at 100 watts for normal filtering.
It flows so well at 100 watts I get three "harmonic" waves off the skimmer door and could easily go lower.

I'm not saying my setup will work for everyone, but I can tell you I'm deliriously happy with this solution.

Uncle Dave
 
Mmmm, not sure I understand your comment on "what appears to be a science project".

But all I know is that no one has any idea how to make my "glass media" work...other than the Ecosmarte saying you can never vacuum dirt through your filter, it has to all go to waste. That statement ALONE has me believing they are selling snack oil.

I have a 30" filter and similar setup...so I would LOVE TO LEARN how to make this work. I really want this to work, but after 2 months I am super frustrated. In reading this board, everybody says it either works or it doesn't (glass media). So in my mind that is not possible. There HAS TO BE a missing link...

Meaning something MUST cause it to fail...like headroom, pea gravel, pump speed, etc....

I would love to figure this out...
 
toofast said:
Mmmm, not sure I understand your comment on "what appears to be a science project".

But all I know is that no one has any idea how to make my "glass media" work...other than the Ecosmarte saying you can never vacuum dirt through your filter, it has to all go to waste. That statement ALONE has me believing they are selling snack oil.

I have a 30" filter and similar setup...so I would LOVE TO LEARN how to make this work. I really want this to work, but after 2 months I am super frustrated. In reading this board, everybody says it either works or it doesn't (glass media). So in my mind that is not possible. There HAS TO BE a missing link...

Meaning something MUST cause it to fail...like headroom, pea gravel, pump speed, etc....

I would love to figure this out...
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A secondary centrifugal pre filter in a pool setup is highly uncommon. Actually I think yours is the first I've ever seen.
Is there any way to determine its effectiveness vs its flow restriction? You may actually be going backwards in efficiency.
Maybe not.

Ecosmarte is well known for less than forthright marketing - a targeted read will show lots of issues with people running their chlorine free systems.
Glass is an intriguing media, but I have only chatted with one guy here running it- and he seems happy, but wasnt sure if that was what he actually had in retrospect.

I think you will be very safe switching to sand and get good results, but thats not the only media that can work.

I think I took a risk with zeo (lots of bad pr almost all related to water issues not filtering easy to blame media for green water) but in my case it works and works very well.

Without knowing how the install went I'm wondering if the installer backwashed the media properly before they began filtering?
Maybe glass doesnt have the dust zeo does, but it took a lot of backwashing to get the media clean and that dust was really fine.

If they can't tell you exactly how they installed it with how much pea gravel etc- then I think you were the victim of an experiment
Maybe they broke a lateral? Hard to tell.

I your setup were mine Id pull the pre filter, suck out the glass with a shop vac inspect everything and- fill with sand and be done with it.

UD
 
I just read through this thread and I am in agreement with a comment in the above post. I wonder if the builder properly installed the filter. The correct method is to fill the filter with water (at least halfway), then add the pea gravel and/or sand (or glass, whatever). This keeps the media from damaging the laterals as it falls to the bottom. I am on my second sand filter, the one I had when I moved in was somewhere around 25 years old. Something went wrong with one of the laterals, and since it was so old I decided to replace the whole thing rather than try to repair it.

When the filter was not working properly, I would get a fine coating of sand in the pool every time the pump started. Do you know if you are getting anything back through the returns other than water (and DE)?

I had a recommendation to move to glass media when I switched out my filter. I put a lot of thought into it, and decided that if sand works for so many so well, why mess with it. I'm glad I did.

I have been thinking, how about removing just enough of the glass media to put in a foot or so of sand?
 

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