We don't provide advise based on pool store testing. It has proven time and again to be inaccurate and not repeatable.

Pool store results were accurate on CH, reread my reply to you in post #11...

You state you are scienticic minded, but are making a lot of assumptions - based on pool store testing.

#3 COULD be on shakey ground, but unless you can offer me a ride two months back in time it's just something we are going to have to live with...

If you are serious about keeping your tub sanitary and basically trouble free, get a good test kit (Test Kits Compared), ditch the "mineral pack" and MPS.

Mineral pack is plugging the hole in the filter, it is supposed to be replaced every six months and it's now about nine. Only put 4 oz so far on MPS, do you think MPS lowers the point CA will precipitate?

Being only 515 gallons, its easy to drain/refill - and should be done every 6 months or so.

I said I did in my initial post, first and third paragraph.

Have you ever purged your tub with Ahhsome to rid it of biofilms?

I said I did in my initial post, 7th paragraph.

Any idea what can cause CA to precipitate beyond the mid 120's or how to push that boundary?
 
Your spa to mange however you wish. Whether the pool store results match one of your CH tests or not - we don't offer advice based on pool store results.

Don't need to reread post 11 - pool store results continue to prove unreliable over time with 1000's of members here. One person reporting that their CH pool store results matched their own test results isn't going to change that.

I've had CH well north of 1000ppm and never had any calcium percipitate out. Proper management of CSI will prevent calcium scale and precipitation. The TA of my refill water is about 110 and CH 225-250 - and I have high evaporation. Keeping the TA in the 50-70 range needs frequent monitoring, along with keeping pH lower as the CH rises - keeping CSI in the 0.00 to -0.30 range. I only added muriatic acid and chlorine - zero magic potions or minerals.
 
Your spa to mange however you wish. Whether the pool store results match one of your CH tests or not - we don't offer advice based on pool store results.

Don't need to reread post 11 - pool store results continue to prove unreliable over time with 1000's of members here. One person reporting that their CH pool store results matched their own test results isn't going to change that.

I've had CH well north of 1000ppm and never had any calcium percipitate out. Proper management of CSI will prevent calcium scale and precipitation. The TA of my refill water is about 110 and CH 225-250 - and I have high evaporation. Keeping the TA in the 50-70 range needs frequent monitoring, along with keeping pH lower as the CH rises - keeping CSI in the 0.00 to -0.30 range. I only added muriatic acid and chlorine - zero magic potions or minerals.

Now that's an answer, thank you! It's doable.

BTW, it's not just one measurement, calibration is data point and scale (with both confirmed). And, yes, the pool store does get some of the results wrong - occasionally wrong enough to throw off my water chemistry if I accepted their results.

I know nothing about CSI. I do manage to keep TA around 50 and when I note PH inching up I consider it the telltale that TA needs to be checked/adjusted. I just don't check it regularly bc my kit reagents are almost gone and cannot be replenished (so I'll have to buy another kit since ALK test results at the pool store have been verified to be unreliable).

I'm not going to ask questions about CSI (yet). I have my suspicions what it is and what it's tied to but I'll do my homework. Hopefully next post this thread from me on progress will be to spell out what happened and how to fix it.

I'm pretty sure some of the chem gurus already know, but I want others like me that are clueless to be able to learn from my mistakes.

Thanks again @proavia for the tip and missing puzzle pieces - Happy New Year!
M.
 
So, last (my first initial) fill I ended up putting 5.5 oz MA in stages over several days.

This 2nd fill I used that info to do it faster with bigger increments. It was comparable, I think 5 oz.

We haven't used it much these 2 months and (to get to the point) PH wasn't checked much, but recently PH worked it's way up from 7.4'ish to 7.8. I just added .5 oz MA. PH is 7.2 now, TA 100.

TA was "coerced" last (initial) fill to 40's and didn't budge a whole lot. This time it took less than 3 months to go from 52 to 100. I retested after trying aeration 15 minutes, PH/TA readings didn't change.

First fill, 15 minutes caused significant change.

All I can think of is TA is really lower. All I did differently is put some MPS in 4 days ago. Can MPS skew a TA test? TA test is Aqua Chem, 3 reagents.

Like the title says, it behaves like TA is in the 40 - 50 range, with PH locked in...
 
The ta reading won’t change after aeration-
That’s the point of doing it.
Aeration only increases ph then you can lower them both with acid & repeat as needed until ta is where you want.
15 minutes isn’t long, I generally wait 30 or so to re check ph (no need to check ta again since it won’t change)
Mps doesn’t skew ph/ta results but it is acidic so it can lower them (there are various concentrations so higher concentrations are more acidic)
 
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my kit reagents are almost gone and cannot be replenished
The individual taylor reagents are available purchase on Amazon & tftestkits.net
All you need is a beaker with the correct marks (10ml for ch & 25ml for ta) that is not used for chlorine testing.
 
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The ta reading won’t change after aeration-
That’s the point of doing it.

PH, aeration for 15 minutes had no effect this time, last fill with TA this high it definitely lowered PH.

TA, the 15 minutes of mixing the MA while doing the aeration had no effect, presumption TA was stable and the MA thoroughly mixed when I did the second TA test as a confirmation of the first test.

Aeration only increases ph then you can lower them both with acid & repeat as needed until ta is where you want.
15 minutes isn’t long, I generally wait 30 or so to re check ph (no need to check ta again since it won’t change)
Mps doesn’t skew ph/ta results but it is acidic so it can lower them (there are various concentrations so higher concentrations are more acidic)

So, it's not the MPS buffering PH from being affected by aeration. It's a VERY old kit, perhaps it passed away in the last 6 months (?).

I reckon this duck is telling me to not add more MA, monitor PH, and buy a new test kit. I'd be tempted to trust pool store testing for TA, but they've had a few off readings on that particular test.

Thanks!
 
Get a good test kit. Don’t waste your time at the pool store.

Taylor makes a very nice rapid test kit, the K-1004, that can test pH, FC/TC, TA and Acid Demand. It doesn’t cost much either (maybe $30-$40).
 
Get a good test kit. Don’t waste your time at the pool store.

Taylor makes a very nice rapid test kit, the K-1004, that can test pH, FC/TC, TA and Acid Demand. It doesn’t cost much either (maybe $30-$40).

Is there a recommend kit that includes TA and CH.

I think I used the webpage calculator for acid, and now am starting to research CSI and noted acid demand can "bump" a ph reading to help allow checking a reading at 8 to make sure it's not higher? Is this an important test or is there another way?

This thread just got moved here, I reckon I better say above, apparently my test kit and the pool store report TA. Even though, the kit cover and reagent bottles said "Alkalinity". So, I reported both the same way in apples to apples fashion. All reported ALK numbers above are TA, per the fine print in the use directions :brickwall:. Sorry for the confusion.

Now I'm going to reveal some ignorance...my first hour looking at CSI seems chemical engineering based and laden with equations. Is there a sticky or primer, like a for dummies book?
 
Is there a sticky or primer, like a for dummies book?



Is there a recommend kit that includes TA and CH.

 

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Is there a recommend kit that includes TA and CH.

I think I used the webpage calculator for acid, and now am starting to research CSI and noted acid demand can "bump" a ph reading to help allow checking a reading at 8 to make sure it's not higher? Is this an important test or is there another way?

This thread just got moved here, I reckon I better say above, apparently my test kit and the pool store report TA. Even though, the kit cover and reagent bottles said "Alkalinity". So, I reported both the same way in apples to apples fashion. All reported ALK numbers above are TA, per the fine print in the use directions :brickwall:. Sorry for the confusion.

Now I'm going to reveal some ignorance...my first hour looking at CSI seems chemical engineering based and laden with equations. Is there a sticky or primer, like a for dummies book?
Taylor k2006 & tf100/pro all include the ta & ch tests. Test Kits Compared
The pool store & all kits measure Total Alkalinity- the difference is that pool stores often then use that measured TA to then calculate an “adjusted TA” based on several other factors which is generally lower & that is what is displayed on the report.
You want to use your actual measured TA for all calculations/dosages & poolmath.
I have never used the acid demand test/reagent - its not really necessary.
Just use PoolMath - enter your measured ph (if you think it is higher than the highest measurable level just enter the highest measurable level) then add the acid it says to reach your target. Retest & repeat the process until you get a measurable number.

Let PoolMath calculate csi for u - no equations or engineering degree needed
Switch it on in the settings ⚙️ hit the ✔️ when you’re done
CBDBA200-9F2E-4667-A7F1-692324B84201.png
 




Thanks, nice write up on the saturation index, playing with the calculator was informative
 
So, got the kit and chemicals today. Interesting!

The pool store reading on TA was 59. My old, old, cheap WallyWorld kit that used to agree until recently reads it as 90 to100. It was lower before and I had no reason to believe it was rising, so the new kit was purchased to be the referee.

While looking for another measuring tube I came across an old HTH kit, turns out it has TA chems. Maybe it's 3 or 4 years newer than the Aqua-Chem kit I'd lost faith in (1990's). Results;

Pool store: 59
HTH: 60
Aqua-Chem from WallyWorld: 90 or 90+
Taylor (new): 60

Funny thing is the HTH instructions say it turns from green to red, but it turned from blue to yellow. It transitioned decisively but I'm betting just exposing the chems to oxygen (by opening them) will hasten their demise...

On the CH, pool store number was 89 (oops, edit: it was 101), but I've since added 10 or 12 gallons fill water and I believe some that precipitated has dissolved back. Taylor kit reports 120. I believe both accurate.

Sure, I get pool store readings can be hit and miss. That's why I have the kit. However, I also have reasonable expectations and know if I turn to the pool store to measure something that I can't - if what I get back seems reasonable and close to expectations...well, if it quacks like a duck

Maybe moot point all this, but at least it got me reading up on why the calcium precipitated. BTW, I also got 10 pages of search results on CSI, but exactly 2 threads when limiting the search to the hot tub forum. I know why, and understand the reluctance to conjecture root cause based on pool store readings, but I think, at least for me, this proves the pool store can't get EVERYTHING wrong. Again, if it quacks like a duck.

At least my readings on CSI told me CA reacts to muriatic acid. I'm guessing boric acid does not?

That Taylor kit also has acid demand drops, one drop made my ph reading go from 7.6 to 7.2, another drop had no effect. Instructions say look at documentation that isn't there. I reckon that's useful if I ever want to referee a reading of 8.0 to see if it's higher. If 8.0 a drop should read 7.6, yes?

OK

south park beat a dead horse GIF
 
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Funny thing is the HTH instructions say it turns from green to red, but it turned from blue to yellow. It transitioned decisively but I'm betting just exposing the chems to oxygen (by opening them) will hasten their demise...

TA indicators that turn from green to red (like the Taylor R-0008) are a mixture of bromocresol green and methyl red:

pH_Indicator_Chart R-0008_1.jpeg

Bromocresol green is sometimes used alone in some TA test kits, but in this case the titration endpoint at pH 4.5 is in the middle of the colour transition, where it's kind of colour-less / greenish.

With the mixture, the endpoint is where it's fully turned red, which I find easier and more reproducible.

One thing that can happen is that the indicator gets bleached out by chlorine. That's why the R-0007 (Thiosulfate) is required to neutralize the chlorine first. When that bleaching happens with the Taylor test, it usually leads to a colour transition from green to yellow, and can be mitigated by adding another drop of R-0007 before adding the R-0008.

If the colour changes from blue to yellow, this sounds more like the methyl red component of the indicator has degraded over time - sounds like it's from the 1990's or early 2000's. I wouldn't use it anymore.


At least my readings on CSI told me CA reacts to muriatic acid. I'm guessing boric acid does not?

Not quite sure what you mean with "CA reacts to muriatic acid"?

Muriatic acid reduces pH and TA, both effects result in reducing the CSI.

Boric acid is a weak acid and has only little effect on pH and TA. It is not suitable for pH or TA adjustments, it is used to add borates to the water as a secondary buffer system.


That Taylor kit also has acid demand drops, one drop made my ph reading go from 7.6 to 7.2, another drop had no effect. Instructions say look at documentation that isn't there. I reckon that's useful if I ever want to referee a reading of 8.0 to see if it's higher. If 8.0 a drop should read 7.6, yes?

It's not as easy. To start with, the pH scale is logarithmic, adding the acid demand drops at a higher pH will result in a different pH change compared to adding the same amount of drops at a lower pH. And the pH change depends on the current TA. Would your TA have been for example 100 instead of 60, then the pH change by one drop of acid demand reagent would have been smaller.

The acid demand test used to useful before easy to use calculator apps like PoolMath were available to work out how much muriatic acid to add to the pool. By knowing the volumes of pool and test sample, and the strengths of your muriatic acid and the acid demand reagent, you can scale the number of drops required for a certain pH change in your test sample to an amount of acid to be added to the pool to achieve the same pH change in the pool.

When starting above the pH-indicator max, it's not easy to calculate the starting pH from the number of drops that were required to get pH down to let's say 7.6. The granularity of the drops and the uncertainties in the TA test and the pH reading just add to much error. And you needed a tool to calculate pH changes with good accuracy - PoolMath is not good enough for that, particularly above pH 7.8.

But even if you didn't know the starting pH because it was "too red", it can be used to scale this number of drops (using the table that comes with the test, e.g. in the Taylor booklet) to a volume of muriatic acid that will reduce the pool's pH to 7.6.

But rather than using the acid demand test, I would recommend to take it in stages and keep adding smaller doses of muriatic acid until you get to a readable pH, and then make the final adjustment using PoolMath.

My personal opinion is, that the acid demand test (end even more so the base demand test) has become quite redundant with PoolMath. But it can be useful to play around with to get used to the full colour spectrum of the pH indicator under your particular test conditions (lighting, background colours, eye conditions, etc).
 
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I know why, and understand the reluctance to conjecture root cause based on pool store readings, but I think, at least for me, this proves the pool store can't get EVERYTHING wrong. Again, if it quacks like a duck.

Maybe your particular pool store is capable of doing good testing. This time. No one here can judge that. When folks on this forum give advice, they need to be able to trust your test results. We know that we can trust tests with Taylor reagents, either directly from Taylor or via Tftestkits.

But we don't know if we can trust your pool store.

Based on general experience from this forum, pool store testing varies greatly. In the end it's your pool, and you can do whatever you want. But if you want to get advice from the members of this forum, then please post test results from your Taylor / Tftestkits testing. Otherwise you won't get answers to your actual questions, but only very repetitive feedback about the quality of pool store testing.
 
One thing that can happen is that the indicator gets bleached out by chlorine. That's why the R-0007 (Thiosulfate) is required to neutralize the chlorine first. When that bleaching happens with the Taylor test, it usually leads to a colour transition from green to yellow, and can be mitigated by adding another drop of R-0007 before adding the R-0008.

Good to know

If the colour changes from blue to yellow, this sounds more like the methyl red component of the indicator has degraded over time - sounds like it's from the 1990's or early 2000's. I wouldn't use it anymore.

Yes, likely mid 90's.

Not quite sure what you mean with "CA reacts to muriatic acid"?

Muriatic acid reduces pH and TA, both effects result in reducing the CSI.

Boric acid is a weak acid and has only little effect on pH and TA.

Two threads were combined, perhaps that confused the original issue.

I had precipitation that looked like white powder. The "primary suspects" were calcium and ant poison (boric acid).

I was saying that from reading up on CSI posts as they pertain to plaster pools, pouring MA on scale will react, and if it doesn't, it's not calcium, so if it happens again I'd have a way to determine if it was calcium or if it was boric acid (presuming MA wouldn't react with boric acid, or at least that's what I'm asking).

When starting above the pH-indicator max, it's not easy to calculate the starting pH from the number of drops that were required to get pH down to let's say 7.6. The granularity of the drops and the uncertainties in the TA test and the pH reading just add to much error. And you needed a tool to calculate pH changes with good accuracy - PoolMath is not good enough for that, particularly above pH 7.8.

But even if you didn't know the starting pH because it was "too red", it can be used to scale this number of drops (using the table that comes with the test, e.g. in the Taylor booklet) to a volume of muriatic acid that will reduce the pool's pH to 7.6.

But rather than using the acid demand test, I would recommend to take it in stages and keep adding smaller doses of muriatic acid until you get to a readable pH, and then make the final adjustment using PoolMath.

My personal opinion is, that the acid demand test (end even more so the base demand test) has become quite redundant with PoolMath. But it can be useful to play around with to get used to the full colour spectrum of the pH indicator under your particular test conditions (lighting, background colours, eye conditions, etc).

You missed the point. I used to be a teacher, so I understand that's my fault!

IF (!) the goal was to maintain PH at 8.0, the acid demand drops could help determine if the reading showing 8.0 was actually higher, is that not correct?

I don't have the Taylor booklet, but perhaps I'll see if I can download it. I don't actually plan on running my PH that high - I was just wondering if I had any practical use for the acid demand drops that came with the kit...

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I suppose with beginners there's always something new to learn.
 
IF (!) the goal was to maintain PH at 8.0, the acid demand drops could help determine if the reading showing 8.0 was actually higher, is that not correct?

To a certain degree. More qualitative than quantitative, I'd say. I just wanted to make clear that 1 drop will not always be equal to a pH-change of 0.4, you can't assume that when 1 drop changed pH to 7.6 that pH was 8.0 before the drop.


I had precipitation that looked like white powder. The "primary suspects" were calcium and ant poison (boric acid).

I was saying that from reading up on CSI posts as they pertain to plaster pools, pouring MA on scale will react, and if it doesn't, it's not calcium, so if it happens again I'd have a way to determine if it was calcium or if it was boric acid (presuming MA wouldn't react with boric acid, or at least that's what I'm asking).

I have never heard of boric acid precipitating, I wouldn't consider that an option in the first place.
 
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