Pool Water Purification

[JoyfulNoise]

Sounds like a win win for them they use your electricity and water.Our company looked into purchasing one recently and decided to pass the cost was astronomical it would take a decade to pay for itself not to mention an employee and insurance and any maintenance on the equipment-doesn’t make business sense to buy the setup

It can only work as a “service offering” for an already established business and you have to be in an area where it can compete with draining and refilling. That really only exists in California where there are strict water usage regulations and homeowners face stiff fines for draining a pool. Even here in Tucson where our water rates are astronomical, draining a pool completely and refilling it is cheaper than RO by about half. There is zero chance of floating pools around here because the water table is so deep so you can actually drain a pool without risk. The only caveat is to do drains and refills outside of the cold winter months (Dec/Jan/Feb) because sewer rates are calculated based on water usage in the winter. So either drain and refill in Oct/Nov or Mar/Apr.

 

[98Poolmaster]

It can only work as a “service offering” for an already established business and you have to be in an area where it can compete with draining and refilling. That really only exists in California where there are strict water usage regulations and homeowners face stiff fines for draining a pool. Even here in Tucson where our water rates are astronomical, draining a pool completely and refilling it is cheaper than RO by about half. There is zero chance of floating pools around here because the water table is so deep so you can actually drain a pool without risk. The only caveat is to do drains and refills outside of the cold winter months (Dec/Jan/Feb) because sewer rates are calculated based on water usage in the winter. So either drain and refill in Oct/Nov or Mar/Apr.

The cost is beyond ridiculous the small setup is 150k and the larger is 250k !!We are very established(In Ohio we have three stores and I am a partial owner in a pool route in So Cal) could not justify the cost to ownership,After we sat down and crunched the numbers it was apparent it wasn’t worth what we get back in return so we politely turned down the system and told them any people interested we would refer them(maybe in California but not in Ohio I don’t think they are any near were we are)they do have quite a few companies around us in Ohio that haul water there are a lot of wells out here and as you know well water is a little tougher to use in pools-thanks for your input you should call that company and apply for a salesman job!!Very nice explanation of the process

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The company in Tucson that offered the service was a pool tile cleaning outfit. They had the smaller RO trailer. I called them once a few years back, pre-pandemic, and asked about the RO cost. The guy said his system was down for maintenance and was only doing tile cleaning at the moment. I asked him when he thought he’d have the RO running again and he basically danced around the question. Then he finally said it wasn’t worth his time to invest the money into getting it fixed and that he’d be happy to clean my pool tiles and drain/refill/balance the pool water. I declined. Never checked in again but I haven’t seen it advertised much so I doubt anyone around here does it.

 

[98Poolmaster]

The company in Tucson that offered the service was a pool tile cleaning outfit. They had the smaller RO trailer. I called them once a few years back, pre-pandemic, and asked about the RO cost. The guy said his system was down for maintenance and was only doing tile cleaning at the moment. I asked him when he thought he’d have the RO running again and he basically danced around the question. Then he finally said it wasn’t worth his time to invest the money into getting it fixed and that he’d be happy to clean my pool tiles and drain/refill/balance the pool water. I declined. Never checked in again but I haven’t seen it advertised much so I doubt anyone around here does it.

The premise is cool I guess saving water and all that eco talk but reality is usually financially driven,the same years ago we used a company that bought the equipment if I remember right it was all Pentair commercial grade stuff we only did one pool with him( he also did bead blasting)he did a lot of pools for us tile cleaning, but he,if I remember right sold it to another company at a loss .

 

[98Poolmaster]

It has a 40 hp pump and a gigantic Waterco commercial sand filter that can handle up to 120psi there is a video on YT about it on Swimming Pool Tips channel it’s pretty cool to check out if you want to I don’t know how to post videos on here and I am not sure that is allowed on TFP

 

[JamesW]

 

[98Poolmaster]

Thank you James I met that gentleman at last years Western Pool and Spa show.If it wasn’t so much I guess it would be cool to have it’s pretty impressive seeing all that high end equipment.I wonder how long this company will last?Who could fix that pump if something happened to it?Our guys have worked on 10-15 hp commercial pumps I remember replacing a brass volute on a Sta Rite pump years ago.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

RO pool water treatment is based on an underlying myth … that you are somehow “wasting” water by draining a pool. It’s nonsense. Any water you drain either turns into clouds or recharges the water basin. Yes, it takes energy to make water potable and then deliver to a customer, but so does processing water on-site. There is no savings in any of this. In fact, it’s arguable that using municipal water in a drain and fill is much more efficient than any point of use system because of the economies of scale involved. Water treatment facilities process water at a scale of acre-foot volumes …. 10,000 gallons of water is a rounding error in their processes. So when they treat water, they do so on a scale that is enormously more efficient than some point of use rig backed up into your driveway and left to run for days on end.

What would be more useful is if Tucson Water cleaned up all the waste, fraud, and abuse that surrounds it and put those savings back into extending their gray water system out to the county. But they’d rather fight county citizens in court and impose arbitrary and capricious water use rates on the basis of “your lots are so much bigger therefore you’re evil and deserve to be punished…” kind of thinking. If they didn’t have an insane guaranteed pension system that is about to bankrupt them every year, then they could do more. But the answer is never “do better” it’s always “screw the taxpayer” and beg for ballot initiatives to borrow more money and violate state laws on utility pricing … oh wait, those are called “overrides” not “violations”.

I’d like a “override” every April 15th when I have to pay taxes to these idiots but I don’t ever get one of those … I get jail time if I don’t continue with their insanity …

 

[ringi]

No setups I have ever seen send the permeate to a holding tank as there would be no way to do that efficiently

Why can't bladder tanks (Pillow Tanks) be placed in the pool to store the processed water? I expect if mixing can be avoided it may be sufficient to only process half the volume of the pool.

 

[JamesW]

I thought that the water somehow disappeared into a mysterious infinite drainage system never to be seen again?

Apparently, I have been misinformed once again by the powers that be.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I thought that the water somehow disappeared into a mysterious infinite drainage system never to be seen again?

Apparently, I have been misinformed once again by the powers that be.

There’s actually a fully outfitted system here in Tucson that can create potable drinking water from waste, runoff, sewage dewatering lines. It’s been dubbed “T2T” water or toilet-to-tap water. The system is capable of an amazing amount of recycling efficiency and would greatly reduce the stress on aquifers and the Colorado River aqueducts. But Tucson Water refuses to certify it and put it into operation … too much efficiency isn’t good for all the corrupt thieves that run the municipal water system here.

 

[ringi]

Now that the capital cost of large scale solar PV power generation is so low, the power usage of systems like T2T should no longer be an issue. As the processed water can be stored they could be opperated at times of peak PV output

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Why can't bladder tanks (Pillow Tanks) be placed in the pool to store the processed water? I expect if mixing can be avoided it may be sufficient to only process half the volume of the pool.

Certainly not a bad idea but you’d be hard-pressed to find any solo contractor wanting to deal with all the setup and maintenance of those bladders. Not to mention any liability they might cause due to “unscheduled rapid draining” event …

 

[98Poolmaster]

There’s actually a fully outfitted system here in Tucson that can create potable drinking water from waste, runoff, sewage dewatering lines. It’s been dubbed “T2T” water or toilet-to-tap water. The system is capable of an amazing amount of recycling efficiency and would greatly reduce the stress on aquifers and the Colorado River aqueducts. But Tucson Water refuses to certify it and put it into operation … too much efficiency isn’t good for all the corrupt thieves that run the municipal water system here.

Sounds like they got their ideas from California,or maybe that’s where they came from,like the movie Chinatown from 1974.

 

[ringi]

Certainly not a bad idea but you’d be hard-pressed to find any solo contractor wanting to deal with all the setup and maintenance of those bladders. Not to mention any liability they might cause due to “unscheduled rapid draining” event …

I don't see a significant risk from “unscheduled rapid draining” event if they are used in the pool with all metal fitting replaced. If I was design a system I would consider opentop tanks made from same fabric with floating rings on the top. The "tarpaulin method" is clearly not practical for one operator and having to remove steps etc along with clear space round the pool makes me question if it is every practical other then DIY.

But they would clearly convert a "one hour setup and leave job" into a job that needs all day work, but would allow most domestic pools to be RO using a much smaller RO system. So for example if they allowed a 30k RO system rather then 120k system would they be justified?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I don't see a significant risk from “unscheduled rapid draining” event if they are used in the pool with all metal fitting replaced. If I was design a system I would consider opentop tanks made from same fabric with floating rings on the top. The "tarpaulin method" is clearly not practical for one operator and having to remove steps etc along with clear space round the pool makes me question if it is every practical other then DIY.

But they would clearly convert a "one hour setup and leave job" into a job that needs all day work, but would allow most domestic pools to be RO using a much smaller RO system. So for example if they allowed a 30k RO system rather then 120k system would they be justified?

Around this part of the world, it’s nearly impossible to justify any RO system given the sunk costs involved and the need to pay someone to actually do the work. The units used for pools are big and require a good deal of setup. Adding another item like a bladder or a floating tarp is simply more setup time and expense. Since a company only reasonably own one or two of these setups, it’s still not very cost effective to deploy them and have to pay someone to stand around and wait.

As “expensive” as water is in certain parts of the USA, draining and filling is still the cheapest and easiest way to go about rebalancing a pool. If one uses the exchange-drain method as is detailed in the TFP Wiki (there’s also a link to my exchange drain thread), then the process can easily replace most of the pool water with fresh tap water and minimal mixing. Iron is an issue in many locations around the US, but it can be dealt with if it’s particularly high. Whee I live, calcium is the mineral that plagues water the most but it can be managed.

 

[ringi]

Thinking about this more, having temporary processing and settlement tanks would make chemical removal methods easyer for many of the problems that drive people to RO. But I would not trust rental tanks to be clean.

 

[ringi]

Since a company only reasonably own one or two of these setups, it’s still not very cost effective to deploy them and have to pay someone to stand around and wait.

I was assuming a one person owner/operator spending time on sales/marketing while the unit does the processing and not taking any day to day pool care (or selling/instilling equipment) so the pool care companies/shops are willing to recommend them.

(And avoiding telling customers about this website so as to get repeat business )

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I think @98Poolmaster has already said they looked at the numbers with their established business and customer base and couldn’t make it work out financially. The lowest I ever seen it advertised was roughly $600USD … and that was almost a decade ago. That cost was easily > 2X the cost of simply filling a pool with the highest tiered rate for municipal water. Assuming that’s the cost one needs to charge in order to “make a living”, that’s not even remotely competitive. If it costs me $250 to do it myself and an RO service wants to charge me $300, I’d bite at that because it saves me the hours of setup, monitoring, and clean up. But if my cost is $250 and they’re asking $600 … no way José.

Any way you slice it, it’s simply not a cost effective solution. Even in large scale municipal water processing, RO is only deployed in very specific application because it costs too much money to operate. If RO were cost effective, it would be used all over the world for creating potable water on a mass scale. Using it for pool water processing is a very niche application and so it’s only going to appeal to those who can afford to pay the premium in price. This isn’t a “business model” problem, it’s a “laws of physics” problem - RO is simple too inefficient a process for mass scale use.

 

[ringi]

Many people do pay a pool service company to do a drain/refill so it should be compard to that not a DIY drain/refill.

(Also for public pools not needing to close for a drain/refill is an advantage.)