Pool + Spa Automation Breakage

[Ahultin]

Without taking these valves apart, how exactly am I to confirm they're sealing or no

You will need to open them up.
4 #3 Phillips screws to remove the actuator, lift it off, then 4 more to open the valve. Check the sealing surface for tears/roughness then relube with something like magic lube on the sealing surface and orings.

 

[generessler]

You mention, "If the spa is draining to the level of the lower jets whenever the system is off, it's possible that the check valve in the center of that bypass pipe is bad, and it's allowing water to flow backward from the jets, through the bypass, and into the pool."
This certainly seems to mirror my exact symptoms since it's lowering down to the pool level. My pool is less than 3 years old. Is it common for check valves to fail this quickly? Is there perhaps something I'm doing to cause excess damage to the valve? Just want to make sure I'm covering all of my bases her.

It may not be a real failure, but a cleaning needeed. My check valve now and then gets a bit of tree stuff stuck in the seal. Wiping the seat and rubber flapper pretty vigorously gets things working fine again. Lately I've switched to a 24x7 VSP schedule so the problem never occurs.

 

[zollan23]

It may not be a real failure, but a cleaning needeed. My check valve now and then gets a bit of tree stuff stuck in the seal. Wiping the seat and rubber flapper pretty vigorously gets things working fine again. Lately I've switched to a 24x7 VSP schedule so the problem never occurs.

I too am on a 24/7 VSP schedule but I'm using 1200 RPM overnight and the spa still drains. Does that change things?

 

[generessler]

My plumbing is somewhat different than yours. You should trust the people with more experience.

But in general there are only a few possibilities. You'll need to check each until you find the culprit.

1. Plumbing leak that's draining water out of the pool system.
2. Leak in a valve allowing spa water to drain down into the pool. Variations:
   • automatic valve actuators aren't rotating the internal diverter to the right position due to either mechanical or electrical problem
   • diverter or check valve flap not sealing against its seat. Variations:
     • worn out rubber seal/flap
     • valve seat flaw: crack, scratch, etc.
     • debris caught in the seal area (as I said earlier

1. seems unlikely. You would have noticed the water level going down or, if you have autofill, water consumption way up. Actuator failure is normally obvious: the handles are in the wrong position. The last stuff is most likely.

 

[zollan23]

My plumbing is somewhat different than yours. You should trust the people with more experience.

But in general there are only a few possibilities. You'll need to check each until you find the culprit.

1. Plumbing leak that's draining water out of the pool system.
2. Leak in a valve allowing spa water to drain down into the pool. Variations:
   • automatic valve actuators aren't rotating the internal diverter to the right position due to either mechanical or electrical problem
   • diverter or check valve flap not sealing against its seat. Variations:
     • worn out rubber seal/flap
     • valve seat flaw: crack, scratch, etc.
     • debris caught in the seal area (as I said earlier

1. seems unlikely. You would have noticed the water level going down or, if you have autofill, water consumption way up. Actuator failure is normally obvious: the handles are in the wrong position. The last stuff is most likely.

Thanks. Appreciate the insight. I'll take apart actuator valves and have a look.

 

[zollan23]

I just wanted to close the loop here in case anyone else is having a similar issue. Shocker, it ended up being the actual diverter valve. I did replace the bypass check valve. After doing that, I opened the bypass again, cleaned everything, added lubricant to the O-Ring and did the same thing with the diverter valve. After letting that sit overnight and the spa still draining, I replaced the diverter valve and the spa has held water now for multiple nights in a row.
Thank you to everyone who helped guide me through this. Pool builder wanted $250 to do this and the part was $15.99 and about 20 min of work.

 

[zollan23]

Your lower circled valve is the Suction valve; it selects whether water is pulled from the spa or the pool. The upper valve is the Return valve; it selects whether water is pumped to the spa or the pool.

The labeling you added to the photo seems slightly incorrect. The "Skimmer" label should be "Spa Suction", and the "Suction" label should be "Pool Suction" (or a more specific label -- see note 1 below). Your "Jets" and "Pool" labels look right, but for ease of understanding the valves, you may want to think of them as "Spa Return" and "Pool Return".

In Spa mode, the handles of both circled valves should point to the left (so the side marked "OFF" points to the right). This will open the Spa Suction and Spa Return pipes, so water will be pulled from the spa and returned to the spa.

In Pool mode, the handles should both point to the right. This will open the Pool Suction and Pool Return pipes, so water will be pulled from the pool and returned to the pool. Note that because of the horizontal bypass pipe below the valve, some water will also flow to the spa in this mode (and then it will spill over into the pool). The idea is that if you just keep the system in Pool mode, the spa water will get circulated, too.

If the spa is draining to the level of the lower jets whenever the system is off, it's possible that the check valve in the center of that bypass pipe is bad, and it's allowing water to flow backward from the jets, through the bypass, and into the pool.

If you want spillover from the spa to the pool without having to run the pump so high, your automation should have a Spillway mode that points the handle of the upper valve to the left and the handle of the lower valve to the right, so water will be pulled from the pool and returned to the spa. That's what's shown in your photo.

Two final notes:

1. The right-hand side of the lower valve splits into two pipes. One of those is a pool skimmer, the other is probably the pool main drain (but might be a second pool skimmer if you happen to have two). The manual valve between them adjusts how much water is pulled from each. You may want to watch the water flowing into the skimmer while you turn that manual valve, so you can give each pipe a specific label instead of treating them collectively as generic "Pool Suction".
2. If your automation is moving a valve to the wrong side in the various modes, find the little toggle switch on the back of the valve actuator. It's a 3-way electrical switch labeled ON1 - OFF - ON2, and it can get accidentally moved if someone is messing around with the valves and not paying attention. To reverse the direction of the valve, move the switch from ON1 to ON2 or vice-versa. Make sure you test all modes -- Pool, Spa, and especially Spillway -- to make sure that they're correct.

Can I ask another question on this setup? I recently got a suction side cleaner to replace a robot. I’ve never used a suction side cleaner before… what valves would I need to set in order to have the machine operate? I have a dedicated suction line so not using the skimmer and I can’t seem to get it to operate.

Thanks

 

[Ahultin]

Looks like you would need to set the manual 3 way between the Skimmer and Cleaner ports to either balance the suction such that both the cleaner and skimmer work, or to fully close one while the other is working (I don't have a cleaner so I'm not sure but i don't know that i would fully close the skimmer port while using the cleaner in the event the cleaner had a blockage that would allow the pump to run dry)

 

[zollan23]

Looks like you would need to set the manual 3 way between the Skimmer and Cleaner ports to either balance the suction such that both the cleaner and skimmer work, or to fully close one while the other is working (I don't have a cleaner so I'm not sure but i don't know that i would fully close the skimmer port while using the cleaner in the event the cleaner had a blockage that would allow the pump to run dry)

That’s what I thought. Tried that and the cleaner moved but not well so I think I have a bad unit.

 

[zollan23]

That’s what I thought. Tried that and the cleaner moved but not well so I think I have a bad unit.

One more question… in addition to turning that valve so get a 70/30’ish split of suction from suction port/skimmer respectively, do I also need to shut off the main pool drain?

If so, can you explain to me how to do that with my current set up because I have no idea.

 

[Ahultin]

Looks like you don't have seperate control between skimmer and main drain at the pad. Yours is likely setup like mine - main drain goes to bottom of skimmer then skimmer to pad. There should be an adjustable float valve at the bottom of the skimmer with a flap that restricts flow to set balance between skimmer and main drain.

 

[zollan23]

Looks like you don't have seperate control between skimmer and main drain at the pad. Yours is likely setup like mine - main drain goes to bottom of skimmer then skimmer to pad. There should be an adjustable float valve at the bottom of the skimmer with a flap that restricts flow to set balance between skimmer and main drain.

Thanks