We signed a contract and it was supposed to be 6 ft deep. Going through permitting and everything it stated only 5’6” deep as the contractor failed to check their info. On the contract we signed their is a disclaimer that 6 inches is allowed in any direction. Am I out of luck or would it be a failure on them to follow through on their end of the original contract. The shell was filled last week and seemed a little short to me. Which made me look at everything.
Pool not to contract depth
- Thread starter Killfathobbit
- Start date
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,433
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- 35000
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
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- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Welcome to TFP.
Where are you measuring to? Middle of skimmer which would be the waterline or top of bond beam for the depth?
Do you have the 6' depth spec in writing to the PB? Does it say that is depth to the waterline?
It is easier for a PB to fix a too deep pool then a too shallow pool.
What does the PB say?
Where are you measuring to? Middle of skimmer which would be the waterline or top of bond beam for the depth?
Do you have the 6' depth spec in writing to the PB? Does it say that is depth to the waterline?
It is easier for a PB to fix a too deep pool then a too shallow pool.
What does the PB say?
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Top of bond beam is 68” I’m not sure exactly what the pb considers as water depth. Middle of skimmer is 64” I called them this morning and stated my worries and they basically said oops that contract says 6’ but the permit shows 5’”6 so that’s how they dug and not really any way to change it because of slope and grade. And that because of the 6” variance allowed in contract there’s not much to be done. I’m a 6’3 guy and the rest of the family is tall so we asked for 6ft for a reason.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,433
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- 35000
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
We advise folks to get into the hole after the dig and rebar is in and before the gunite and confirm all measurements. You would be surprised how often subcontractors the builders use get a measurement wrong.
Fixing it at this point will take $ and a jackhammer.
Fixing it at this point will take $ and a jackhammer.
Yes I see that now. This is probably more a legal question but is it worth looking for some compensation since they can’t follow directions and screwed up the permit. Or does the variance disclaimer in the contract save them even though they messed it up going to permitting.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,433
- Pool Size
- 35000
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I would see if the builder will throw you some free equipment or chemicals to compensate you.
I don't know what you are getting to suggest something.
I don't know what you are getting to suggest something.
That’s what I was thinking so they don’t have to redo it all and spend big money. Just wanted it to be done right after all the money spent and everything laid out. Then they drop an egg like this. Thanks for your help!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,932
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- 12300
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I don't see how the spec on the permit matters, at least in terms of helping your end result. How this happened, or who misread what, is kinda irrelevant at this point. It comes down to if the pool meets the contracted spec or not (not the permitted spec). If the spec in the contract is 6' and the contract states ±6" and the actual water depth is going to be anywhere between 5'6" and 6'6", then you're out of luck.
If the deepest point of the pool is going to be 5'6" from the deck, which will make the water depth more like 5' or so, then you might have a case.
If the deepest point of the pool is going to be 5'6" from the deck, which will make the water depth more like 5' or so, then you might have a case.
Ok I’ll look into that what they consider as the depth. Thank you for clarifying that contract is what it’s based off and that the permit doesn’t really matter.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,932
- Pool Size
- 12300
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Just checked the math. If the measurement to mid-skimmer is 64", not counting what the finish is going to subtract (perhaps another 1"?), then the pool is not built to spec (IMO). Unless the contract better defines "depth," it is reasonable for a consumer to assume a 6' depth means water depth.
If the PB is stating things like "not really any way to change it because of slope and grade," that is contractor-speak for "The pool is not to spec, but I'm going to pretend it wasn't a mistake and that I shorted your pool because it wasn't possible to build it to spec." That is no excuse. That violation of the contract spec needed to be presented to you as a change order which you would have agreed to and signed. Without that, he's in breech and should be on the hook to fix it, and just doesn't want to pay for that.
So you might have a case. You'd have to argue and win the point about the definition of "depth," so it's not a slam dunk.
I don't know enough about pool construction to say how bad the fix would be. It's not just jack hammering the deep end, as there is rebar to contend with.
If the PB is stating things like "not really any way to change it because of slope and grade," that is contractor-speak for "The pool is not to spec, but I'm going to pretend it wasn't a mistake and that I shorted your pool because it wasn't possible to build it to spec." That is no excuse. That violation of the contract spec needed to be presented to you as a change order which you would have agreed to and signed. Without that, he's in breech and should be on the hook to fix it, and just doesn't want to pay for that.
So you might have a case. You'd have to argue and win the point about the definition of "depth," so it's not a slam dunk.
I don't know enough about pool construction to say how bad the fix would be. It's not just jack hammering the deep end, as there is rebar to contend with.
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I contacted them again and they said it’s the height of the pool wall which would fall in their variance allowed. Nothing in the contract states what is considered depth so it looks like I’m out of luck. It’s only a few inches I know but if it was built to the correct height I should have that much more depth IMO. That’s how I see it at least.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,932
- Pool Size
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I can't quite decipher that sentence...
If you pursued this with a lawyer, I think you'd find the opposite is true. Between the "professional" and the "consumer," it is the professional that has the burden to provide the necessary details in the contract. If they left out the definition of "depth," that is on them, not you. If they don't provide exact definitions, then any ambiguity goes to the damaged party. In other words, if the contract doesn't describe depth as deepest point of the pool after finish is applied to the top of the deck (or whatever), then it can pretty much mean anything. And as I mentioned, if you asked most people what it means when the pool is "6' deep" they would say "The water is 6' deep." These kinds of issues are left to a judge's discretion, so a lot comes down to how the case is made, how the evidence is presented.
If depth was not defined, then that is a point in your favor, not the PB's.
They stated the depth is bottom of the pool to the top of the wall. Yes to me it sounds like they are making it up to save their behinds. The way I understood it originally was 6ft of water not wall.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,932
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Well, the first step is to determine if you can be satisfied with the pool the way it's going to be. If not, will any sort of compensation make up for it? If not, how far are you willing to go to get the pool the way you want it?
So either accept it as is, or negotiate compensation, or take the contract to a lawyer and see what he says (I doubt this will be a small claims case).
Just from hearing your side of the story, it sounds to me like the PB knows he messed up, and is trying to get out of it. I suspect that because he has so far given you several different, somewhat competing reasons why the pool is the way it is, without offering any actual proof, or first going through what should have been normal, legal methods to modify the contract.
But being in the right and wanting to fight for it are two different things. And that's not a criticism, merely a choice to be made in terms of what's best for you.
So either accept it as is, or negotiate compensation, or take the contract to a lawyer and see what he says (I doubt this will be a small claims case).
Just from hearing your side of the story, it sounds to me like the PB knows he messed up, and is trying to get out of it. I suspect that because he has so far given you several different, somewhat competing reasons why the pool is the way it is, without offering any actual proof, or first going through what should have been normal, legal methods to modify the contract.
But being in the right and wanting to fight for it are two different things. And that's not a criticism, merely a choice to be made in terms of what's best for you.
I get that it's in their specified tolerance as they will define it from now going forward, but, the plans were wrong. They were in breach as soon as they submitted plans that did not meet your contract. Tolerance is for construction variation, not a CYA for someone who permits something that does not match the contracted parameters.
Having said that, you have to choose how you want to approach it and what is worth to you. They are very early in your build, lots of things to deal with between now and a final inspection. If you really push on this, I would expect huge delays, and you will need to be on them every step of the way because if they are out money on this item, they are sure to try and make it up elsewhere.
Tough situation, unfortunately we had a dispute with our kitchen guy last year in our new house remodel we're dropping it mostly because it's not worth the hassle, but the best thing I can tell you is to never blindly trust anyone. In ours, I had my guy dead to rights, but trusted him at a critical moment and paid the price. We decided that we couldn't live with his error and ended up spending an extra $6500 to get what we wanted. We're happy, but it could have been avoided.
Review your plans for any other issues, review all materials when they show up to make sure they match what you asked for. Review the plumbing when it goes in. Honestly, this is the reason I am owner building. Cut out the middle man and check everything myself. You're already learning that your PB really doesn't have time to make sure that your pool is constructed to your standards.
Having said that, you have to choose how you want to approach it and what is worth to you. They are very early in your build, lots of things to deal with between now and a final inspection. If you really push on this, I would expect huge delays, and you will need to be on them every step of the way because if they are out money on this item, they are sure to try and make it up elsewhere.
Tough situation, unfortunately we had a dispute with our kitchen guy last year in our new house remodel we're dropping it mostly because it's not worth the hassle, but the best thing I can tell you is to never blindly trust anyone. In ours, I had my guy dead to rights, but trusted him at a critical moment and paid the price. We decided that we couldn't live with his error and ended up spending an extra $6500 to get what we wanted. We're happy, but it could have been avoided.
Review your plans for any other issues, review all materials when they show up to make sure they match what you asked for. Review the plumbing when it goes in. Honestly, this is the reason I am owner building. Cut out the middle man and check everything myself. You're already learning that your PB really doesn't have time to make sure that your pool is constructed to your standards.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,932
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
A little ammo... two points.
1)
I just googled something really quick, so I can't vouch for the PDF that I first looked at. But certainly, if this particular doc is not official, then there are some out there that would be. It's a document named "Guidelines for Remodeling of Public Pools." About half way down the first page is the following bullet point:
That, I believe, is the industry standard. This is why I pointed out earlier that any reasonable person would conclude that a 6' depth means 6' of water, not wall.
2)
Here's more information that supports my notion.
It discusses safe water depths for diving into a pool. All the numbers are associated with water depth, not anything to do with the distance between deck and bottom of pool.
Your assumption that 6' meant the depth of the water is the correct one. His assertion that it means something else is a lie to cover his mistake.
And as I mentioned, since depth can have multiple meanings in a swimming pool, the fact that the contract doesn't specify which meaning is the PB's error, not yours. He made two mistakes: he didn't build the pool correctly, and his contract does not adequately protect him from that. It attempts to, as he gave himself a ridiculous 12" margin or error (can you imagine building anything that can be off by 6"!?!). And yet he couldn't even hit that.
You really do have a case. It's just up to you to pursue it or not.
1)
I just googled something really quick, so I can't vouch for the PDF that I first looked at. But certainly, if this particular doc is not official, then there are some out there that would be. It's a document named "Guidelines for Remodeling of Public Pools." About half way down the first page is the following bullet point:
That, I believe, is the industry standard. This is why I pointed out earlier that any reasonable person would conclude that a 6' depth means 6' of water, not wall.
2)
Here's more information that supports my notion.
Minimum Water Depths for Head First Diving From Pool Decks, Starting Blocks, Docks and Similar Low Fixed Platforms
Minimum Water Depths for Head First Diving From Pool Decks, Starting Blocks, Docks and Similar Low Fixed Platforms
www.health.ny.gov
It discusses safe water depths for diving into a pool. All the numbers are associated with water depth, not anything to do with the distance between deck and bottom of pool.
Your assumption that 6' meant the depth of the water is the correct one. His assertion that it means something else is a lie to cover his mistake.
And as I mentioned, since depth can have multiple meanings in a swimming pool, the fact that the contract doesn't specify which meaning is the PB's error, not yours. He made two mistakes: he didn't build the pool correctly, and his contract does not adequately protect him from that. It attempts to, as he gave himself a ridiculous 12" margin or error (can you imagine building anything that can be off by 6"!?!). And yet he couldn't even hit that.
You really do have a case. It's just up to you to pursue it or not.
Thanks for your help guys. They’re coming out Thursday to measure but I’m sure I’ll get the same line about the depth being the wall. After that I’ll have to make my case about nowhere stating that would be how depth is measured. Like you’ve said it should’ve been spelled out and not made up once a mistake from them is called out.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,932
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
@jimmythegreek, how bad is this? Can you chip away just some of a gunite shell to deepen the pool? Can you tie new rebar to old somehow? Redo the slope and the corners? Can the shell be modified, or do they have to start over?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,433
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,932
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
If we allow for about 1" of finish, the PB really only needs to find 3" to satisfy the contract. Maybe he'd try to get away with that without addressing the rebar. But to get to 6' water depth, he's gotta go down 9". That would get him into the rebar, I would think. Some of the rebar will have to be moved downward, and then tied in correctly with new rebar? I'm not sure how that can happen...