Pool Leaking or other ideas?

[bbello121]

Hi,

I will try to give you a quick overview. My pool builder is no help and I will not go into details, just let's say he won't even respond.

Ok, so since the pool was finished in November 2018, I have thought the pool may be leaking. I have a 12 x 20 inground pool that has AquaBright for the interior. Anyway, the pool builder said it is not leaking and stopped returning my calls. He said it was evaporation. I loose about 3 inches a week. However, since a few weeks after we had the pool completed, our house ran into some structural issues so the pool has been covered this entire time. (So since it is covered 24/7, we could not do the bucket test) It has a solar cover and a blue tarp over it. It seems weird to me that there can be that much evaporation through multiple covers. I am in Florida as that might matter. Anyway, the travertine around the pool was damaged during the structural fix. So we pulled it up to replace it. When we did that, we noticed on the one side of the pool (we have not pulled the travertine up from all sides yet), a large cavity. It seems to be running a large length of the pool on the 20 foot side. I found it when I pulled the travertine and fell through. I attached a picture that may not be the greatest. It is about 2 to 4 inches below the ground level and extends as far as I can reach along the edge of the pool (at least 2 feet deep, maybe more in some areas, maybe less ( I just tried ramming a piece of rebar through the ground. Guess what? It went the full 4 feet down in many areas., so there is a major void there and I enclosed some pictures and everywhere there is a hole, there is hollow ground underneath). At first before I saw how deep it was, I thought maybe it was just erosion from water seeping between the travertine pavers. But I am thinking this is way too much to be erosion and if it was, it would be directly under the travertine. Not 4 to 6 inches below ground level which is about where the pool water line should be. I have no idea where all that sand is washing. I am hoping for some ideas, suggestions and the like before I even try to approach the dealer as it is not a good relationship at all and I don't want to accuse him of something that is not his "fault". This is my first pool, so I am sorry if this is a stupid question.

Another piece of information. When they were building the pool. They were going to upgrade my interior shell coating (after the concrete but before the AquaBright) with a product that was supposed to be waterproof and I think it was called BaseCrete. Long story short, they said they would not experiment on my job as the manufacturer would be there and show them how to apply it. The manufacturer never showed and they failed at applying it. They tried again. Failed again. They then just did normal plaster or whatever is normal before the topcoat of AquaBright. I don't know if this is related.

There is no plumbing on that side of the pool. There are no drains or skimmers or anything on that side. So I think somehow it is leaking. I don't know if AquaBright is watertight or not. But I guess the pool tile is not. So maybe it is leaking from there if they did not apply everything right (by the way, they screwed up my tile the first time too and that had to be redone).

 

[ajw22]

Do you have any pictures of the pool during the build? Showing the rebar structure? Before or after the gunite?

Basecrete is a good waterproofing and bonding product. It is not required but nice to have. The plaster should be providing the waterproof shell.

Hard to say what is going on without seeing much more details about your pool. You may want to hire a leak detection company who has tools to listen for and identify leak sources.

@bdavis466 may have some thoughts.

 

[bdavis466]

How did they fail at putting in the basecrete? That's not really something that you can screw up. They may not have got complete coverage but most pools in the world don't have a waterproofing layer so that shouldn't make that much of a difference anyway.

Were they trying to use the basecrete as the plaster layer for the aquabright?

 

[bbello121]

Hi,

Ok, I will try to explain the pictures as I best remember. One thing I may not have been clear enough about. They put the basecrete on the back wall toward the beach that seeems to be leaking and the left side wall from what I recall. They could not get it to adhere properly (it kept falling off). From what I recall, the manufacturer told them the first time they were putting it on too heavy. The second time they were supposed to mix it with sand which they tried. Same result. Then they gave up. It was falling off the second time too. Yes, they were trying to use the basecrete as the plaster layer for AquaBright.

I think the third time, they pressure washed the pool shell to break most of it off. I am sure it all was supposed to come off. Whether it did or not I can't confirm. I am also not 100% sure when they did the "normal" plaster or whatever they used for the normal pool coating if they had to do that a second time too or not. Then they went over that with the EcoFinish/AquaBright product.

Pictures build 1 and 2 show some of the rebar structure as it was being built.


Now picture 3 I think was when they shot the concrete.

Don't quote me on this, but picture 4 I think is when they put the waterline tile on the first time (they screwed up the Litokol Crystal Expoy Grout by backwashing it with water). They said no one ever in doing over 1,000 pool had requested either a colored grout or epoxy grout which is why they did not know what it was or how to apply it properly. I find that hard to believe, but a story for another day. I don't know if there should have been the waterproofing plaster layer behind the tile or not. It would make sense to me. Could that be where my leaks are coming from? As it does seem the cavity underground is roughly waterline level and from there it goes down so many feet.



Picture 5 is a close-up of the tile installed. It just seems to have white thinset behind it. Also, you can see how there is a smoother surface for about 4" under the tile but before the rougher concrete I think. Also note, the bottom of the tiles are wrapped in a foil so they don't push the plaster into the tile area (I had to ask them to do that after they were pushing it into the tile). I am not sure if these things are important, I am just pointing it out as I found it interesting.


Picture 6 is I am not sure of the phase. You guys can probably tell better than me. But it was taken after the other pictures in date order.


Picture 7 is where you can see they put the basecrete or plaster right up into the tile. I forget which time this was.


Picture 8 is another of the I think plaster layer as I seem to recall they did not get to this bench with the basecrete.


Picture 9 is where you see the tile, the expoy grout after they ripped out the first install of the tile they did wrong and how the AquaBright was shot up onto the tile. I did not feel the level of attention to detail was sufficient for this part (or many others), but they said this is normal. Is it just normal as they do a poor job or is this really normal in the industry for a $60K pool?


Hopefully some of this helps. They said they will be out sometime next week. I was surprised they even answered me as they have not replied to any of my recent emails or inquiries. Maybe because I mentioned it is a safety hazard when I fell in to the void and since some of them are 4 foot deep and if my 7 year old niece fell into one, she could be seriously hurt. Anyway, they said I never informed them there might be a leak. That is bull as I told them a few times and they just blew it off to evaporation and that it was my first pool. I really appreciate the help. This way I can be prepared for what they may say.

As a quick side note, one person mentioned a leak detection company. For the amount of back fill that has been lost (and I have no idea where it has gone in only 8 months, to me it seems like it would be the whole side of the pool. Any thoughts on that?

 

[bdavis466]

Was there a plumbing run where that void is? Looks like poor compaction to me.

Foil on the waterline tile? BaseCrete applied that thick? There's a whole bunch of wrong that happened so there's probably no way of knowing for certain what's actually going on.

Aquabright is not waterproof

 

[bbello121]

Hi,

There is no plumbing on that far side of the pool. There is only plumbing run under the center of the pool for the 3 floor drains, on the right side for the skimmer and the front edge for the spa.

The foil on the waterline was simply to prevent them from running the basecrete or plaster into the tile as they seemed messy to me in their application.

So if the waterline tile was applies as such.....
1) Concrete shell
2) White thinset
3) Tile applied over the white thinset
4) And if the plaster was only applied from the waterline down....could that be the problem that the water is seeping through the grout in the waterline tiles and then washing the sand out from that level down?

Given that I am only losing about 3 inches a week (but keep in mind that pool has been covered with a solar cover on the water and a blue waterproof tarp on the top so it should not be escaping due to evaporation), does that seem like a possible culprit? I don't know if the plaster/waterproofing should have been behind the tile. That seems to make sense to me.

If that is the case, I guess they have to rip out the waterline tile for a 3rd time?

From what I seen so far, it would seem to me it is either the waterline tile not being waterproofed behind it (and if it is, I might expect to find more voids around the pool as I search more today), or something they did from a basecrete perspective putting it on and taking it off as that seems to be where the majority of the voids are. Possibly the plaster did not adhere properly over the base crete? Maybe there was not a good bond coat?

Thanks for any insight.

 

[ajw22]

Thinset, tile and grout should create a waterproof barrier if properly done. Grout is waterproof. Cracks and spaces around tiles without grout would not be waterproof.

I doubt that amount of water can seep through the tile line. I think you need to step back and look more broadat what is going on.

 

[bbello121]

One other comment. When you say poor compaction. Keep in mind, I am on the beach. Very fine sand and I have a 20 foot void that varies in depth from 1 foot to 4 feet or so along the pool directly behind the pool shell. But there is the top layer of the ground that is 2 to 4 inches thick that is over the void. If it was a few inches, I could see a compaction issue....but a few feet? I am asking as obviously I have never done this before you and you might say that you have seen such deep voids develop from poor compaction. Thanks again!

 

[ajw22]

I think Brian is talking about poor compaction of the gunite. Gunite is installed under pressure and the crew needs to see it gets around the rebar and does not have any voids.

 

[bbello121]

Thinset, tile and grout should create a waterproof barrier if properly done. Grout is waterproof. Cracks and spaces around tiles without grout would not be waterproof.

I doubt that amount of water can seep through the tile line. I think you need to step back and look more broadat what is going on.

Allen,

From my experience doing house flips (obviously not the same as doing pools), it is my understanding that even modified thinset is not waterproof (I just googled it and it does not seem to be from the articles I pulled up). I know most grouts are not waterproof either. As when we do tub shower surrounds, water seeps into the grout joints and will drip down the backerboard that will be there (many types available) and that is why that has to be on the inside lip. We have have uncovered many installs where the backboard was not inside the lip, but the tile was and when we cut it out, there was a horrendous amount of damage and mold from the water dripping behind the tub for years.

Now to your point if that much would seep, I have no idea. This has been over 8 months.

But I took pavers up all the way around the edge of the pool. The depth the rebar goes varies.
Anywhere from 4" which I would consider normal in a beach sand. In other areas it is 1 foot down, 2 foot down, 3 foot down. I have also tried going 15 feet from the edge of the pool and I could not get the rebar down more than 4" anywhere around there.

So I guess my question is....what is industry standard? Do you put the plaster coast up the entire shell of the pool or just to the waterline tile? If only to the waterline tile, what is the reasoning?

Thanks for your input as I really appreciate it!

 

[bbello121]

I think Brian is talking about poor compaction of the gunite. Gunite is installed under pressure and the crew needs to see it gets around the rebar and does not have any voids.

Ahhh, thanks for the clarification. Is there a way to test that at this point?
Hopefully I am not looking at them tearing up my pool again....but I have a feeling that is what is going to happen

 

[bbello121]

Was there a plumbing run where that void is? Looks like poor compaction to me.

Foil on the waterline tile? BaseCrete applied that thick? There's a whole bunch of wrong that happened so there's probably no way of knowing for certain what's actually going on.

Aquabright is not waterproof

The pool company came out today.

They said they do not think the pool is leaking. They said that we should have a leak specialist come out and if it is leaking, they will pay for the service call. If it is not leaking, they said I have to pay the service call.

Since the pool is 8 month old, I am not sure that is fair. I asked them where all the voids came from if not from the pool construction or a pool leak. He said he did not know as all the drainage on my property is carried far away from the pool area.

Once I try to drive the rebar down through the ground 5+ feet away from the pool, it will not go past a few inches. So this issue only seems to be around the pool.

I do recall that when they did the initial inspection on the 3 floor drains, they we failed for a very small leak. I am wondering if that was never fixed properly.

Brian, you mentioned it may be compaction of the pool shell I think I understood. How would we be able to test if that is the problem?

Is 3" on a 11x20, 3.5 foot to 5 foot deep, 9,000 gallon pool a lot? Is it possible it could be seeping through the shell and the leak detection company would not be able to catch that? Or is it possible the floor drains make a lot of sense?

I just want to be prepared with the right questions to ask tomorrow based on the leak detection results. Any suggestions or guesses are much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[sktn77a]

Get the leak company out - they cost about $300 and, on top of $60k, it's not much for a definitive answer to your concerns. If there isn't a leak, then you issue is elsewhere and if there is a leak, the pool builder will pay for the detection and fix it. Yes, 3" a week is not normal - you have an issue somewhere.

 

[bbello121]

The leak detection company came out today.
When I told them that I experience about 3" of loss per week, they at first said... "Well, you are at the beach with wind and evaporation, that is probably right". Then I told them that I had a solar cover on and a water tight blue tarp that every time it rains I have to sump pump the water off so I know it is water tight. So they said "We will see".

So long story short, they found a leak by the vac line. They said in their estimation, I would lose about a half in a day or roughly 3 inches per week.
It is about 3 feet away from the hole I fell into. So in one aspect I feel a lot better now that we know there is a leak and it can be fixed.

The only thing I don't totally understand is the washout around the pool that I have seen. As mentioned, the pool install is only 8 months old. I fell in the first time (not as deep) back in March and I let them know about it then and it was a "let's keep an eye on it".

It does not really make sense to me that this one leak could wash out so much dirt around the entire pool. So that kind of makes me wonder if maybe they did not backfill and compress the sand properly. They did not use any gravel. They just used the original sand.

So any thoughts on this next part would be super helpful. Again, thanks to everyone for their input. I will keep the thread updates in case anyone else runs into a similar situation. Thanks again!

 

[ajw22]

We don't know how your property looks and where water and drainage flows in storms that could wash out loose areas. I think it is difficult to backfill and compress sand the way nature does.

Unless it is specified in the contract grading and filling around the pool area is not part of the build. At this point you need to look at what needs to be done around your pool area and have an appropriate contractor familiar with your local environment fill things.

 

[bbello121]

Allen,

Thanks for the feedback.

The contract states the following:
Excavated fill removed from site: Yes
Site Cleanup by Pool Contractor: Yes
If fill to remain on site to be spread by Pool Contractor
Grade and Rake Site and Access: Yes
Contractor shall provide a minimum three yards Dewatering Rock
Decking Type: Travertine installed by contractor

So would you consider that to indicate that is a part of the contract where they should be responsible for proper backfill?

I don't know if it is a backfill problem or not. We are just speculating at this point. I would think that it would be the contractor's responsibility to backfill the pool they installed so I did not fall into a hole 4 months after the initial install and again 8 months after the install (where we are now). Then if they are installing the travertine, is it too much for me to assume that they would backfill the pool properly so they can lay the 650 sq feet of travertine around it?

I am asking as I just don't know. I would have thought if they are handling the dig, install and top coat(travertine pavers), it would be reasonable to expect that it won't collapse in a few months later.

Thanks again for the input and I welcome any other thoughts. At the end of the day, I just want to figure this out so I can hopefully start to enjoy my pool.

 

[bbello121]

Here is an update.....
1) I had a ground stabilization company come out and map the entire property. Those sort of companies are quite common in Florida due to sinkholes. What they found was normal soil compaction everywhere in the entire yard except around the pool. In and around the pool, there are voids anywhere from the pool shell extending out roughly 3 or so feet that are up to 4 or 5 feet in depth. It was exacerbated in the area of the vac hose.
2) Believe it or not, a leak was found that would be consistent with what would cause approximately 3" of water loss a week right near the vac hose attachment.

The pool company did come out today and they fixed the leak. So I think that problem will be resolved and that explains the 3" of water lost a week issue.
They did examine the ground issue and said they were having their guy come out to water jet and backfill around the pool. I asked if that is normally done and they said yes. I shared I did not recall them doing them during the install process. He stated that does not seem right it was missed. I replied I was not here every moment, but I was here the first 2 days the paver guys were here and I do not recall them doing that. I only seen them use a vibratory plate compactor. So I am thinking that was missed and that explains the ground issues around the pool.

I am providing this update as hopefully it will help someone else in the future. If anyone has any questions or comments, please feel free to reply as I am still learning.

I also am very happy the pool company came out and addressed this. As my dealings in the past had not been great, but I am hoping this is a new start as I would really like to have a better relationship with the pool builder. That is why I have never named them in any posts. I am hoping I will start to really get to enjoy my pool now!

 

[ajw22]

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear you worked through the problems and found fixes.