Pool Heat Pump Experiment and Tracking electrical usage with a Monitor

[athflying]

I have been trying to figure out the best setup to reduce electrical usage from our pool. In the past year, our bill has steadily increased and currently is over $200 and this time last year was about $120. There are a lot of variables (new pool heat pump, rate increases, working from home, etc) so trying to see what can be done to bring it back down a tad. I have tried a few different setups with the pool heat pump, but so far haven't come up with anything conclusive. So over the next 2 weeks, I am doing 3 different scenarios. The heat pump will be set at 84 for all. The first scenario will be to run pump 24H at 1200 RPM. Second scenario will be to run pump 12H at 1200 and 12H at 900. Third and final scenario will be 6H at 1200 and 18H at 900. I have been running my pump 24H for a few months for more consistent chlorine generation from my SWG. At 900, the heat pump will not kick on. So the idea is to see if it's better to let it heat the pool around the clock vs only during the day and trying to find what window of time is best. The biggest problem is the weather. Being FL, this time of year it can be a high of 70 or nearly 90. Rain can also be a significant factor, but hopefully through the two weeks it stays consistent.

As I was thinking about this, I ran across a couple different devices that claim to be able to monitor usage. One is called Sense . Just curious if anyone has any experience with it or a comparable product.

 

[PoolBrews]

In all of those scenarios the heat pump will be your single biggest consumer of electricity. If you have automation, you can set your minimum speed needed for the heater to run, and it will automatically ramp the pump up, then back down once your temp is achieved. You may be able to also do this with your SuperFlo VS pump - I'm not sure how much interconnectivity is included in the simple pump electronics.

My pump runs at 1200 RPM all day, and ramps up to 2,500 RPM when heat is called for.

I'll be interested in your findings!

 

[cowboycasey]

I did some research on monitoring apps as I just installed Solar.. I went with Emporia at half the price of sense and it tells you exactly what each breaker is using... You can also use one of the sensors for solar... I have not installed it yet as my solar is not done...

https://smile.amazon.com/Emporia-Monitor-Circuit-Electricity-Metering/dp/B08CJGPHL9

Have you looked at going solar, free energy once it is paid off..

 

[athflying]

I did some research on monitoring apps as I just installed Solar.. I went with Emporia at half the price of sense and it tells you exactly what each breaker is using... You can also use one of the sensors for solar... I have not installed it yet as my solar is not done...

https://smile.amazon.com/Emporia-Monitor-Circuit-Electricity-Metering/dp/B08CJGPHL9

Have you looked at going solar, free energy once it is paid off..

Our last house had a solar heater installed by previous owner. It was completely non functional when we moved in and leaked everywhere. I spent a weekend and patched it and got it up and running. That pool was uncovered with lots of sun and we honestly barely needed it. Unbeknownst to me, it wasn't installed correctly and caused major roof damage and a water leak. It was leaking over the soffit so it went undetected for quite awhile, but it rubbed right through the shingles and the plywood underneath was sawdust. I know that shouldn't happen with a proper install, but it was not a fun experience.

We moved to a new house about 5 years ago and this pool is covered and it seems to block 90% of heat. We considered going solar, but didn't for two main reasons. One we wanted complete control and if wanted to swim over Christmas and spend $100 to heat the pool for a couple days, we had the option. Secondly, we will need a new roof within the next 5 years. I figure the expense of having it taken down and re-installed negates the cost savings of running a heat pump or at least makes it a closer race. We haven't had this heat pump quite a year, so won't be switching to solar anytime soon....but maybe next time around when it's time to replace the heat pump.

I will definitely check out emporia. I like what Sense is doing and the simplicity of install, but from what I am reading sounds like it has a ways to go.

 

[athflying]

In all of those scenarios the heat pump will be your single biggest consumer of electricity. If you have automation, you can set your minimum speed needed for the heater to run, and it will automatically ramp the pump up, then back down once your temp is achieved. You may be able to also do this with your SuperFlo VS pump - I'm not sure how much interconnectivity is included in the simple pump electronics.

My pump runs at 1200 RPM all day, and ramps up to 2,500 RPM when heat is called for.

I'll be interested in your findings!

That much I know. FPL allows me to see my usage down to the hour and when I was kicking it on around 9 am I can see the spike in usage for the next 2-3 hours bringing pool back to temp.

I have ZERO automation. My pump runs on it's own schedule with 3 programmable time frames and different pump speeds. The SWG is on a timer (currently never off and let run 24H) and the heat pump kicks on when it needs to maintain the set temp. The only thing I have a little control over is when the heat pump runs. I can drop the RPM below 1200'ish and it won't run. The downside is my SWG is iffy at those speeds. There has been more than once the flow switch goes to "No Flow" at like 1100 RPM when it ran that way just fine for weeks. I haven't found a correlation with why (would think a dirty filter, but not the case)...seems random.

If I find that running the heat pump mid day saves me a noticeable amount of energy ($$) I may get a wifi switch or timer that will allow me to turn the heat pump off overnight. If the difference is negligible I will just let it run 24H and heat as needed. This past year I turned off in Dec and Jan. During late fall and early spring, it may make sense to not let it run overnight with lows below 50ish, but I will have to run same experiment then again and see.

 

[cowboycasey]

Our last house had a solar heater installed by previous owner. It was completely non functional when we moved in and leaked everywhere. I spent a weekend and patched it and got it up and running. That pool was uncovered with lots of sun and we honestly barely needed it. Unbeknownst to me, it wasn't installed correctly and caused major roof damage and a water leak. It was leaking over the soffit so it went undetected for quite awhile, but it rubbed right through the shingles and the plywood underneath was sawdust. I know that shouldn't happen with a proper install, but it was not a fun experience.

We moved to a new house about 5 years ago and this pool is covered and it seems to block 90% of heat. We considered going solar, but didn't for two main reasons. One we wanted complete control and if wanted to swim over Christmas and spend $100 to heat the pool for a couple days, we had the option. Secondly, we will need a new roof within the next 5 years. I figure the expense of having it taken down and re-installed negates the cost savings of running a heat pump or at least makes it a closer race. We haven't had this heat pump quite a year, so won't be switching to solar anytime soon....but maybe next time around when it's time to replace the heat pump.

I will definitely check out emporia. I like what Sense is doing and the simplicity of install, but from what I am reading sounds like it has a ways to go.

Sorry about that, I was not talking Solar pool heating.. I was talking about solar Power electricity... It can take your 200 dollar bill and pay off solar power in 15 to 20 years and you will have free electricity from the sun..

My power bill has raised from 120 dollars a month up to 180 in the last 6 months.. I am actually using less power but they are now charging more money "to get power to me" and they say they are not raising prices on power....

If you do need a new roof wait till you replace the roof and then get solar

 

[athflying]

Sorry about that, I was not talking Solar pool heating.. I was talking about solar Power electricity... It can take your 200 dollar bill and pay off solar power in 15 to 20 years and you will have free electricity from the sun..

My power bill has raised from 120 dollars a month up to 180 in the last 6 months.. I am actually using less power but they are now charging more money "to get power to me" and they say they are not raising prices on power....

If you do need a new roof wait till you replace the roof and then get solar

Gotcha....I have looked in to solar a couple times and you would think in FL it would almost be a requirement, but every time I come to the conclusion the ROI is not there yet. I think it varies state by state and what incentives are available. By time we need a roof, maybe that will have changed.

 

[ajw22]

If I find that running the heat pump mid day saves me a noticeable amount of energy ($$) I may get a wifi switch or timer that will allow me to turn the heat pump off overnight.

Heat pump efficiency and BTU output is highest at 80F and declines as the air temperature declines at night.

You are just wasting electricity and BTUs if you heat the pool when not using it as long as the HP can get the pool up to desired temperature when you do want to use it.

 

[athflying]

I did some research on monitoring apps as I just installed Solar.. I went with Emporia at half the price of sense and it tells you exactly what each breaker is using... You can also use one of the sensors for solar... I have not installed it yet as my solar is not done...

https://smile.amazon.com/Emporia-Monitor-Circuit-Electricity-Metering/dp/B08CJGPHL9

Have you looked at going solar, free energy once it is paid off..

I looked in to the Emporia and for what I am trying to do seems much better than Sense. Sounds like Sense has a great idea, just not there yet.

I ordered and will be here tomorrow. I hope to install tomorrow night and going to restart my experiment since I can isolate heat pump use vs looking for trends in the data FPL provides.

Heat pump efficiency and BTU output is highest at 80F and declines as the air temperature declines at night.

You are just wasting electricity and BTUs if you heat the pool when not using it as long as the HP can get the pool up to desired temperature when you do want to use it.

That's what I am trying to determine if it's cheaper to maintain temperature overnight vs bringing to temp everyday. I have heard arguments both ways but really without any real data to back it up.

Unfortunately I never know when we will use the pool. It's predominantly on weekends, but sometimes we do jump in during the week. On demand heating isn't a heat pumps strong point, so I have to have it within a 3-4 degrees of a comfortable temp to make it worthwhile.

 

[cowboycasey]

Gotcha....I have looked in to solar a couple times and you would think in FL it would almost be a requirement, but every time I come to the conclusion the ROI is not there yet. I think it varies state by state and what incentives are available. By time we need a roof, maybe that will have changed.

I never looked at ROI, I really do not care... I looked at who I want to pay my money to.... Do I want to spend 180 dollars a month to the power company so they can continue to raise my bill.. In 10 to 15 years the bill is going to be 300 to 500 or so dollars a month...

Or I can get solar and a 20 year loan and my payment stays at 150 dollars a month for 20 years... After that my bill goes to the 10 or 20 dollars a month from the power company...

Now in Florida they are trying to charge Solar people more to have solar.. They think they are losing money but really they do not want people to have solar because it is free energy they can not charge you for...

 

[athflying]

I never looked at ROI, I really do not care... I looked at who I want to pay my money to.... Do I want to spend 180 dollars a month to the power company so they can continue to raise my bill.. In 10 to 15 years the bill is going to be 300 to 500 or so dollars a month...

Or I can get solar and a 20 year loan and my payment stays at 150 dollars a month for 20 years... After that my bill goes to the 10 or 20 dollars a month from the power company...

Now in Florida they are trying to charge Solar people more to have solar.. They think they are losing money but really they do not want people to have solar because it is free energy they can not charge you for...

Correct, FPL was trying to get me (customers) to fund their solar farms so they could turn around and sell us that free energy.

It's been a bit since I looked in to it, but the legislation around solar is definitely not in the consumers favor here.

 

[Toxophilite]

As I was thinking about this, I ran across a couple different devices that claim to be able to monitor usage. One is called Sense . Just curious if anyone has any experience with it or a comparable product.

My neighbor is running 3 heat pumps between house and shop, plus all other appliances and equipment. He recently installed such on his panels, though not sure brand and only have seen app screen for demo, and he has felt benefit of it. Ironically enough, in my first 2 months of operation, my $/kwh has gone down with the pool. My plan charges me $90.00 ($.09/kwh) for tiers of 1,000. For the past couple of years, I am always paying into a tier of 1,000 without fully using it, so my average is always around $.012, which is the going rate otherwise. So, since my bill hasn't changed, my pool hasn't cost me any more $$ in energy cost.

 

[athflying]

Emporia is installed and seems to be working. We have a front moving through and roughly 3 days of cooler weather with lows 50 and high mid 70's. Now that I can isolate just Pool Heater usage going to do first 24H running pump constantly at 1200 and heat pump free to kick on whenever. 2nd day will run pump 1200 again and turn heat pump off by sunset and not back on til it's 65+ out, will let heat run for 6 hours. While heat is off will run pool pump roughly 900 rpm. Last day will run same scenario, but kicking up pool pump RPM to 2200 while heat pump is running. I will probably run same scenarios different times of year as I suspect optimal run times will vary with the seasons.

 

[athflying]

Days 4 out of 6 done....so far the results are favoring let it run 24/7.

Day 1 and 2 - Pump running 24/7 at 1200 RPM, HP set to 84 degrees
1. - 22.455 kwh @ $2.44 (HP ran once at 5 am for just over an hour and then again around 9 pm for about 2.5 hours)
2 - 13.668 kwh @ $1.48 (HP only cycled on once for about hour and half)
Day 3 and 4 - Pump running 24/7 BUT at 1200 for 6 hours then 900 for 8 hours. RPM increased to 1200 @ 10 am allowing heat pump to then run.
3 - 19.214 kwh @ $2.09 (Ran about 3 hours from time kicked on at 10 am)
4 - 20.935 kwh @ $2.27 (Ran about 3 hours from time kicked on at 10 am)

It runs about .57 kwh or roughly $0.60 an hour to run. That surprised me a bit as my A/C is 1/3 of that and expected them to pull roughly the same amount of power.

The last two days will be similar to Day 3 and 4, except when the pump kicks on at 10 am, I am going to run it at 2200 to see if the increased speed can reduce heating time. Also the weather has been fairly consistent across all of these days....low in mid 60's and high 78-80. Also I have kept the pool covered this entire time except when in use.

 

[PoolBrews]

I am amazed that your heat pump runs with the pump at 1200 RPM. I have a Hayward HP 21404T 144K, and my minimum pump speed is 2,400-2,500 for it to kick in. Any lower, and I get a Lo Flo showing on the console.

I do know that heat transfer efficiency is higher with higher flow rates, but I don't know by how much. Running at lower rates can allow heat to build up on the coils that could be transferred to the water. I assume this is also harder on the coils themselves.

 

[athflying]

It actually goes even lower, I wish it had a higher threshold so I could run SWG without heat kicking in but currently they overlap and I have trouble running the SWG without the HP kicking on.

 

[athflying]

So my conclusion....run the heat pump however works best for you and cover pool if can. From what I saw that makes biggest difference. I think you could potentially optimize energy usage based on time of day, temp, etc...but I currently have zero automation so am limited.

For this time of year....I plan to let it run 24/7 as needed. I am running pump already for SWG so why not. As overnight temps drop next fall will re-evaluate.