Pipes leak after contractor modified

[troubledpoolnerd]

Good day,
I hope everyone is in good spirits, it has certainly been tough for me. I called a pool contractor to replace/enhance my 18x36 oval inground pool equipment (larger sand filter, quiet variable speed pump, and add a pool heater-I had no heater before) and relocate the equipment to a new location in the yard. I was also beginning a pool deck (patio) renovation project but I let the pool contractor work first because I thought he would be putting in new pipes straight to the returns to where the new equipment was. When he was done working, I found out that he did not replace the pipes near the returns at all and instead relied on my existing pipes and connected the minimum amount of new pipe. It looked like a cost cutting measure and I asked if it would be a problem, it would leak, since we don't know the age and condition of the old pipes, but he claimed that it was how it always was done, and it wouldn't be a problem, and we decided to trust his professional opinion. They also said there was a warranty on their labor so I thought if it leaked they would fix it(but now they are trying to limit that just to "equipment"). Anyways, my patio was put on, it was still early spring so too cold to swim or really use the pool, and it seemed to pass all the perfunctory tests (except we weren't able to see a full backwash because they never extended the backwash soft rubber lines to let the water run for a full 2 minute cycle). So, in the test, they never backwashed the pool fully. In warmer weather a few weeks later, I performed the first real backwash of the pool, and found that there was a leak under the patio, in the pipe that they did not replace. They refuse to repair the area under the patio for me and instead put a temporary long aboveground pipe and had to gall to charge me for it, almost $400.
I called other contractors who said that they would have done all new pipes from the return to the equipment, which I was expecting in the first place but found this contractor I chose cut corners.

They are instead blaming my mason for somehow messing up my pipes. I watched my mason work the entire time and if he caused the problem it would have occurred as soon as the patio was put up, not when I first backwashed my pool.

Being that they chose to connect old pipe with new pipe, should they be responsible for this leak even though it is not technically part of the scant new pipes they installed? It seems like a shortcut, a design flaw that they wanted me to take on the risk of, but they are trying to shy off responsibility of.
Now my pool is stuck with an aboveground "temporary" pipe and I have to ask another contractor to fix the leak under the patio (ripping up my newly installed patio on the way as well).
Do I have a case in court or do they actually have no responsibility like they claimed, even though it was their choice to connect old and new pipes?
Also they claimed that backwash was a coincidence. However I'm not so sure, the leak occurred after I did the first full backwash cycle with water actually running out of the pool for 2 minutes, rinsed, and then I turned the filter back to filter mode (at this time, the leak started under the patio). Could something in backwash cycle have triggered this problem? The backwash was never tested fully when they did the initial test after the installation.
Please advise. Wondering if I should sue or not. I already paid them over 8000 to do this project only to end up with a leaking pipes and have to spend more $$ to get it fixed and REDO my patio when it seems to be due to their cost cutting measure.

My pool pipes NEVER leaked for the 2 years I moved to this house. It seems like the problem occurred after they altered the pipe structure instead of putting in new pipes.

Could my old pipes not be adequate for the new larger filter and the different pumping motion of the variable speed pump? Could they have somehow accidentally broken my old pipes as they are trying to connect it with the new pipes? Does backwash have any mechanically special elements that induce leaks?

Thanks, any advise is appreciated. Not a pool expert but always trying to learn.

 

[HermanTX]

Welcome to TFP.
I don’t understand the relationship to the backwash mode. I assume you have a DE or sand filter and you have a multiport valve in front of it. In backwash the same pipes are used for suction as in pool mode. The only difference is the exit flow from the filter is diverted to the backwash hose which you rolled out.
You may wish to have a drawing or some pictures to better explain what is leaking when in backwash mode. What pipe did they add and what does it do?

Under normal operations you backwash once a month.

I think you may be hard pressed to win a lawsuit, but what does the contract say with regard to repairs or warranty. That is the first document a lawyer will review to determine if you have a claim.

 

[troubledpoolnerd]

I did not receive a contract. Only a quote and an invoice. Both were not too specific about scope of work and warranty.
The pool was not leaking in backwash mode. After the first backwash, when I switched it back to filter mode, it started to leak. And it's been leaking ever since in filter mode. As in water would seep out from under the patio pavers.
They did not touch the pipes closest to the return, which were under the pavers in my old deck, they dug close to where the old patio pavers but only in the soil and connected there, I'm not quite sure how much was the ratio of old and new pipes. I have used this company for 2 years to do basic pool work (open/close, powervac) so I thought there was some basic professional trust between us. That's why I hired them for this big job.
I don't know what hard pressed means. Does that mean that I am not likely to win a lawsuit?
it is normal for pool companies to sneakily short cut their customers by cutting down on equipment costs like connection to old pipes and not using all new pipes and not be responsible for any complications due to their shortcut?
Not sure where the exact leak site is. They were too lazy to flip up my patio to see the actual leak site. They only said that if the leak occurred somewhere under the patio it was not their responsibility since they did not work under the patio.
I'm just not sure if they have no liability because it was their discretion to connect old with new pipes without examining old pipes. Professional negligence?
Also other pool professionals have said that they would not do it that way, they would connect new pipes directly from return to the electric equipment, hence would work under the patio. It was the reason I hired them to work before the masons updated the patio.

Overall I'm just bummed I shelled out over $8000 to them to turn my trouble free pool into a troublesome pool. Lol.

 

[HermanTX]

It may be worth the expense to hire a leak detection company to determine where the leak is. Normally, once PVC is glued and it holds pressure, as you said they tested, then it would not leak just because you switched from pool mode to backwash then back again. As stated earlier, the suction pipes in pool mode and backwash are the same pipes.
The return pipes are only active in pool mode and again what was the trigger that caused the leak after the backwash activity.
Maybe others have ideas.

 

[HermanTX]

I don't know what hard pressed means. Does that mean that I am not likely to win a lawsuit?
it is normal for pool companies to sneakily short cut their customers by cutting down on equipment and not be responsible for any complications due to their shortcut?
Not even sure what pipe was leaking. They were too lazy to flip up my patio to see the actual leak site. They only said that if the leak occurred somewhere under the patio it was not their responsibility since they did not work under the patio.

You don’t have a contract Other then what is written on the quote or invoice. So were they supposed to replace all pipes or was that your assumption. It will be your word against theirs and especially concerning if they did not do any work under the patio but that is where the leak is. You can write bad reviews, write to the BBB, and even pester them with phone calls. I think you need something to prove it was theif negligence thus the recommendation on a leak detection company.

 

[Poolbreh]

I connect new pipe to old pipe all the time, I’ve never really had an issue. But the more old pipe I can cut and replace I do. Usually if a client dropped $8000 I would come out and try and make it right.

 

[troubledpoolnerd]

if you connect new pipe to old pipe, would you take into consideration modified equipment? my old sand filter was smaller and they said I should use a larger filter. also they change my pump from a single speed to a vsp, and added an electric heat pump which I didn't have before. would these new or modified equipment cause my old pipe to be not suitable any more? maybe too thin/weak/not enough pressure? I had no idea since they never showed me the old pipe and did not disclose they were going to be connecting old to new beforehand, until I deduced it because I saw the patio has not been touched after they installed the necessary piping and they claimed that it was how they always do it.

so do they always ruin clients pools?

their idea of "making it right" is to put a temporary aboveground line last month replacing my returns so I could use the pool. It looks like life support lol. Now, they are waving their hands and just leaving it there since they won't fix the pipe under the patio. And billing me around $400 for this temporary solution (I never even said I wanted it). They said they are "never coming back"

I now need to find a more responsible pool guy to fix this mess for me. At my own dime.

It seems like being a pool owner you just need to deal with expensive contractors who cut corners and can hand wave off any responsibility when things go wrong. Apparently since I'm not an expert I didn't even know that they could get away with mixing old and new pipes in the first place and I found out the hard way. But if it was their decision to do so, shouldn't there be any accountability on their part? If it worked, no problem, but if it didn't work, they should still dig under the patio to fix it the right way. Where is the justice in this society?

 

[1poolman1]

If the company/person that did the work is a licensed contractor, he is liable for a "workmanship" warranty. In California, I have to live with this
(and I have never had a warranty claim against my work):
"However, these implied warranties are limited by statutes of limitations in each state, which dictate how long homeowners can bring warranty claims against contractors. Statutes of repose also exist in most states, which indicate the length of time for which a contractor can be held liable for his or her work. Statutes of repose can apply different terms to different elements of a job. For example, in California, the statute of repose is four years for most problems, but 10 years for latent defects or problems that aren’t readily apparent." This is the website the quote is from - How Long Is a Contractor Liable For After the Job Is Complete? | Home Matters | AHS

You might start by searching for "New York workmanship warranty." You should also contact whatever board or agency that controls contractors and register a complaint. If he is not licensed, your contractors' board may have a way of getting you relief and possibly prosecuting him for "contracting without a license."