Phosphates in town water supply insanely high

[Phosguy]

Hi, first time poster, long time lurker. I'm on year 6 of being a pool owner. After years and years of educating myself (a lot from these forums). a year ago i determined that high phosphates was keeping my FCL from being stable. Yes, i know its controversial is phosphates a bad thing. But the only thing after years of trying everything else (SLAM, Trouble Free method, etc. I feel like i'm pretty knowledgable about pool chemistry. I actually bought my own Lamotte Spin Touch machine so i dont have to go to the pool store to know all my levels.) I only had success in getting FCL to maintain was to tackle the phoshphates. So this year i took care of phosphates early in season (instead of SLAMMING the pool which i would have to do twice in a season). by taking care of phoshpates early in season. (from 3,000 down to 500) i was having the clearest season ever. By mid august i noticed the phoshpates had gotten back over 1,000 and climbing. How could this be i just eradicated in June!! Well, mystery solved. After reading another article about phoshpates, the culprit was the MUNICIPAL water. I tested my tap water and it was off the chart. As a sanity test i tested Poland Spring water immediatly after and th reading was ZERO. This season i've had to add about 4 inches of water to my pool about 6 times (evaportion, no leakage). SO EVERY TIME I USED MUNICIPAL WATER I WAS BOMBING MY POOL WITH PHOSPHATES. It all makes sense now..

So now, i'm on a mission to figure out a way to not use town water to fill my pool when needed. We have a water softener, and i tested that water and it was same as garden hose water. I called a water delivery truck and they want $750 minimum per job. So here is my question to the board. Cany anybody think of a way to eradicate phosphate from my municipal water BEFORE i put it in the pool?

I'd say it takes me about two hours + back breaking labor to clean 8 filters after Pool Klear phos remover is added, not counting you cant use the pool for a day or so.

Any suggestion, no matter how outlandish are welcome.. thank you..

 

[reggiehammond]

My recommendation is to get a proper test kit. Review Pool Basics and study the relationship between CYA and Free Chlorine.
Pool Care Basics
Test Kits Compared
FC/CYA Levels

Phosphates are a non-issue in a properly sanitized pool in almost all cases. You're not better off with a Spin Touch, than you are in visiting the pool store. The tests just are not accurate or precise enough for proper pool care. Drop-based titration is fast, economical and accurate. 1,000 ppb phosphates is actually fairly low.

With enough stabilizer and proper free chlorine levels, you'll be able to leave behind all of this trouble you're experiencing. Without enough stabilizer, UV from the sun will drop your FC levels. Without enough FC for your CYA levels, organics like algae will drop your FC levels. It's really that simple.

 

[TinFoilHat]

This ^^^^ I wouldn't be bragging about all the knowledge you have gained nor the time you spent on TFP if you haven't yet learned that phosphates aren't a problem in a properly sanitized pool. Your belief in phosphates being a thing means you are still a proponent of what the pool stores are telling you. The thing about phosphates is that they are measured in parts per billion, not parts per million that we measure other chemicals in. It's a fools errand to think that phosphates are your issue. Your issue will always be FC vs CYA and their symbiotic relationship.

 

[Phosguy]

My recommendation is to get a proper test kit. Review Pool Basics and study the relationship between CYA and Free Chlorine.
Pool Care Basics
Test Kits Compared
FC/CYA Levels

Phosphates are a non-issue in a properly sanitized pool in almost all cases. You're not better off with a Spin Touch, than you are in visiting the pool store. The tests just are not accurate or precise enough for proper pool care. Drop-based titration is fast, economical and accurate. 1,000 ppb phosphates is actually fairly low.

With enough stabilizer and proper free chlorine levels, you'll be able to leave behind all of this trouble you're experiencing. Without enough stabilizer, UV from the sun will drop your FC levels. Without enough FC for your CYA levels, organics like algae will drop your FC levels. It's really that simple.

Im going to respectfully say.. after years i've tried EVERYTHING. And with regard to the Spin Touch.. i've corroborated all the readings of my machine versus Taylor drop tests. Again.. respectfully.. i will take it to my grave my FCL issues is my phosphates issue so i'd like to pursue ways to keep phosphates out. And finding out that municipal water was off the chart i'd like to never fill my pool with municipal (untreated) water ever again.

 

[Phosguy]

This ^^^^ I wouldn't be bragging about all the knowledge you have gained nor the time you spent on TFP if you haven't yet learned that phosphates aren't a problem in a properly sanitized pool. Your belief in phosphates being a thing means you are still a proponent of what the pool stores are telling you. The thing about phosphates is that they are measured in parts per billion, not parts per million that we measure other chemicals in. It's a fools errand to think that phosphates are your issue. Your issue will always be FC vs CYA and their symbiotic relationship.

Okay, so doing absoutely NOTHING else to my pool chemistry. except one session of that Pool Klear stuff, and cleaning my filters.. and NOTHING else, that within 24 hours my FCL was perfectly maintained? And i'm supposed to believe "it wasnt the phosphates"?

 

[Newdude]

The industry is obsessed with algae control because it's highly profitable.

We are obsessed with maintaining a sanitary pool that's inhospitable for algae to grow.

With no algae, the algae food is irrelevant.

 

[Leebo]

So now, i'm on a mission to figure out a way to not use town water to fill my pool when needed.

I too have tinkered with removing phosphates and understand your desire to keep them low. In an attempt to directly answer your question I’ll offer a few ideas that I’ve utilized in the past.

• Utilize as much rain water as possible. Any opportunity you can redirect downspouts or whatever into your pool, go for it.
• Use a solar cover whenever possible. By reducing the amount of water wasted to evaporation you’re gonna reduce the amount of water needed to refill.
• Lower your water temp, especially during the fall months. The mindset here again is you want to reduce evaporation whenever possible.
• Make sure every drop of water is accounted for. While some people have learned to live with small leaks at their pad, you need to make sure everything is tight and there’s no water wasted.

Lastly is a hint when dealing directly with phosphates, ditch the use of PhosFree! It’s greatly overpriced and doesn’t work nearly as well as other commercial grade products. If you decide you do wish to continue dealing with phosphates, read this article for some hints and additional pieces of information.

 

[Newdude]

Out of curiosity, what was the phosphate level of the tap water ?

 

[Donldson]

i will take it to my grave my FCL issues is my phosphates issue

Soooo, the part where you ended your initial post with "Any suggestion, no matter how outlandish are welcome" was a bit of a fib, then?

EDIT: Would you mind posting up your test results? Specifically what is your FC and CYA and what FC levels are you maintaining?

 

[Dirk]

TFP is not your typical online forum. We don't really exist to debate all the various methods and equipment for pool care. In fact, we have moderators patrolling posts to keep all that in check. We consider ourselves, above all else, a teaching forum. And we teach one, and only one, very specific method of pool care. That method is based exclusively on the test results of only two water test platforms, which are really just variations of the same platform.

We love to say here "It's your pool, do whatever you want with it." And we mean that. We don't need to convince people to use our MO. Nor are any arguments from posters going to impact what we teach here. Which, by the way, has been torture-tested across ~400,000 pools, over decades, and backed by real science, not anecdotal evidence.

So if you've found a method of caring for your pool that works for you, stick with it. But if you're looking for validation that your method is OK, and it's other than the TFP method, you're just spinning your wheels here.

More to the point, we base our advice, and answers to questions, on test results from the aforementioned test kits. If you can't provide those results, we can't, and won't, be able to answer your question(s).

 

[JoyfulNoise]

A lot of people tend to think that if they have any chlorine in the water at all that it means that algae can’t grow … sadly, this is not true. We also tend to talk about “algae” as if it is one particular microorganism … again, not true. Algae is a generic term that encompasses THOUSANDS of genetically different microorganisms from single-cell species all the way up to complex multicellular seaweed. So what’s important to know is that algae can be killed by chlorine …. when there is enough of it to do so and when the amount of algae in the water is less than a threshold amount that would consume large quantities of FC.

Is phosphate algae food - yes.

Do high phosphates make algae grow faster - possibly. The data here would be at what point does phosphate concentration reduce the ability of algae to reproduce and the data that is available shows that phosphates below about 50ppb (parts per billion) inhibits growth, anything above 50ppb produces a somewhat S-shaped response to growth, and growth rates flatten out again around 2000-3000ppb. That is, of course, all dependent on the particular algae species being studied.

Pools, if they do have issues with algae, tend to live in the 100ppb to 1000ppb range when phosphates are not ACTIVELY being added to the water (just humans and landscape debris). When phosphates are being added, for example by the use of metal sequestering agents, then it’s not unusual for pools to see their phosphate levels rise above 2000ppb or higher. In those cases, you sort of have the ticking time-bomb effect - you can manage a pool with high phosphates and not get algae but you have to be very careful to keep your FC elevated most times. Algae kill rates (disinfection) are all over the place so it’s hard to pinpoint the “right” FC number that will keep a pool clean. So if you happen to fall below that “right” value and you have lots of phosphates, your pool will go green.

So therein lies my suspicions about your pool - while your SpinLab is ok for routine analysis, they do often go bad or give falsely confident reading. Drop testing is way more repeatable and closer to the mark every time. So my guess is that phosphates weren’t the root cause, just a contributing factor. When you chlorinate a pool you have to stay on top of that daily. If you get lazy, or life happens, and you let the FC drop, then your pool is likely to go green. It just goes green a little quicker when phosphates are around to help the algae along.

As for the water supply - no way to get rid of it really. Municipal suppliers use phosphates to protect ancient metal plumbing systems (usually with lead solder joints) from corroding. Being in NJ, your municipal plumbing is more than likely ancient. But you also get rain where you are which is a blessing. So consider setting up a 1000 gallon rain collection drum in your yard. The water you collect off your roof will be greatly appreciated by your pool and your plants. And it’s even great for washing a car as long as you filter all the sediment out of it.

 

[tgurske]

RO filter to remove phosphates. That is how it is done in reef tanks. You are going to waste a lot of water though.

 

[reggiehammond]

Im going to respectfully say.. after years i've tried EVERYTHING. And with regard to the Spin Touch.. i've corroborated all the readings of my machine versus Taylor drop tests. Again.. respectfully.. i will take it to my grave my FCL issues is my phosphates issue so i'd like to pursue ways to keep phosphates out. And finding out that municipal water was off the chart i'd like to never fill my pool with municipal (untreated) water ever again.

Ok - good luck. TFP results and methodology are proven. How Clear is TFP Clear?

But if you find something that works for you, and produces results that you're satisfied with, then by all means, go forth and prosper. Everyone has a different opinion and tolerance for all aspects of life.

Without drop-based testing results, we're all going to be guessing as much as you are regarding your issues.

 

[tgurske]

Low FC and high phosphates can lead to algae growth and that algae will eliminate all your remaining FC.

The experts on this website believe that you should kill the algae with chlorine, and it sounds like you are just trying to kill the algae by eliminating its food source (phosphates).

From what I understand, if you SLAM, drop test and maintain a higher FC levels then the pool should be fine regardless of the phosphates. The algae can't eat the food if it's dead.

If you want to eliminate the phosphates you really only have three options: filter the water, buy different water, or treat the water with a product that eliminates the phosphates.

 

[Leebo]

I called a water delivery truck and they want $750 minimum per job

I'd also like to touch on this idea too........

There's no doubt you can find cheaper, but be VERY cautious about proceeding. Many times water delivery services simply "pull up" to the local water plant and fill up their trucks using the exact same water you'll get from the tap. Odds say any services in your area will also deliver water that's high in phosphates.

This all said, I get your mindset, but I personally wouldn't attempt tackling your problem by focusing on the fill water, I personally would tackle the problem by focusing on your phosphate remover as PhosFree leaves a fair amount of room for improvement.

 

[Phosguy]

Great replies here guys.. thank you and i apologize if tone was harsh before. Regarding dismissing the spin touch results. I must reiterate that i've matched spin touch to Taylor kits.. i have drop kits too. For example, you cannot do a SLAM with Spin touch cuz it maxes out at like 13 FCL. so i use drops. i also have checked my Salt and phoshpates with drop kits. i use the spin touch for weekly check and the drop kits when im doing somehting and need to test daily (cuz the Spin discs are not cheap).. So now just give me the benefit of the doubt that my readings are correct. with regard to "trying to keep FCL high enough to combat > 1,000" phoshpates: it was just a losing battle. My last reading was: FCL 3.5 TCL 3.58 PH 7.5 CYA 61. Now weather that combo is the proper ratio i dont know.. but what i do know is that i've maintained FCL between 2 and 4 for the past 45 days (my best streak ever) only because i tackled the phosphate problem in June. So its been my best summer in 6 years. I only tested for the phoshpates again and saw it creeping back up again last week. I've just closed the pool for the season and will tackle it at the opening. And Yes, i dont use the Phos Free junk.. i got better brands from reading this forum. What was my municipal reading? It was way darker than the > 1,000 color on the drop chart. Versus Poland Spring was totally clear no reading.. Thank you for the advice if i was to "order" water i'd need to check it before. So thanks for all the feedback.. i know you mean well.. i just really got to my breaking point trying everything over the years the only thing that worked "FOR ME" was attacking the phosphates. I think what i'm just going to have to do is if we get heavy rain and water is over the skimmer i would usually drain some.. but now i really never wanna drain cuz i hope to never use muncipal water to fill it up if it gets low. thanks guys.

 

[Phosguy]

I mean, is that not one single other person on here who can say "yes, Phosguy, i've tried TFP methods too, and for me it just didnt work, only thing that worked was for me to eradicate the phosphates. If the answer is no, there is nobody, then okay, i'm doing it wrong. . (either that or nobody else is using NJ water! ha)

 

[Donldson]

How can you claim to be following TFP methods if you're consistently keeping your FC well below the minimum for your CYA level?

 

[Dirk]

I mean, is that not one single other person on here who can say "yes, Phosguy, i've tried TFP methods too, and for me it just didnt work, only thing that worked was for me to eradicate the phosphates. If the answer is no, there is nobody, then okay, i'm doing it wrong. . (either that or nobody else is using NJ water! ha)

But here's the rub. You haven't "tried TFP methods." Not even close. We start you off on pages that teach you, first, how to participate in the forum. Starting with filling in your signature, so advisors here can see what we're dealing with. You haven't even bothered with that initial step. We also direct you to pages that introduce you to what we teach here, and your statement "Now weather that combo is the proper ratio i don't know," indicates you haven't taken the time to study up on the most basic fundamentals of the TFP methods. And your decision to ignore our advice about the proper way to test your water, if you want to use the TFP method, is just another indicator that you are not really interested in the TFP method at all.

Rather, you seem preoccupied with getting your custom method validated, even if from only "one single other person." Which indicates what we, or at least what I, tried to explain, about what we do here, and how and why we do it, just kind'a went in one ear and out the other. And for the record, we did validate your method, by telling you: if what you're doing works for you, then keep at it. It's not a matter of what you're doing being right or wrong. It's whether it's TFP or not. And it's not. And that's fine.

When you're ready to really try the TFP method, we'll still be here to help. Until then, I'll wish you all the best with your pool.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Someone running FC between 2 to 4 is asking for trouble.