Phosphate Control and minimal FC

[Mimi Pool]

Spun off from here as the discussion went to an A2D topic.
CYA is the most frustrating part of maintaining pool chemistry in my experience. We did use tablets a couple weeks ago during a four day trip, then removed them upon return. According to PoolMath in order to reduce CYA even to 60 requires replacing 29% of the water in the pool - over 8200 gallons. That is not happening. Go to Leslies or pretty much any pool store and they'll tell you CYA doesn't matter - I know why they take that position. Last August our water was tested, CYA reported at 120 with a nice green check next to it.

The next issue is phosphates, something else for which there is no clear consensus or easy solution. Since our CYA is high, and pool store testing reported phosphates at over 1600 (perhaps all the organic material that falls in, plus the cicadas this year) we're going to follow the "insurance policy" and remove phosphates to under 1000 in an attempt to prevent algae. I'll probably get him the Taylor K-1106 kit and Orenda PR-10000. Water has been crystal clear since right after opening.

 

[Bperry]

CYA is the most frustrating part of maintaining pool chemistry in my experience. We did use tablets a couple weeks ago during a four day trip, then removed them upon return. According to PoolMath in order to reduce CYA even to 60 requires replacing 29% of the water in the pool - over 8200 gallons. That is not happening. Go to Leslies or pretty much any pool store and they'll tell you CYA doesn't matter - I know why they take that position. Last August our water was tested, CYA reported at 120 with a nice green check next to it.

The next issue is phosphates, something else for which there is no clear consensus or easy solution. Since our CYA is high, and pool store testing reported phosphates at over 1600 (perhaps all the organic material that falls in, plus the cicadas this year) we're going to follow the "insurance policy" and remove phosphates to under 1000 in an attempt to prevent algae. I'll probably get him the Taylor K-1106 kit and Orenda PR-10000. Water has been crystal clear since right after

Its your pool so you can do whatever you want, but I suspect you’ll find that following the pool store and following TFP recommendations is going to leave you frustrated and with an empty wallet. If you’ve been around reading a bit, you hear the “stay out of the pool store” mantra and that has worked well for me.

I've got cicadas flying (and floating) around my pool and have not ever worried about phosphates. You really don’t need anything other than liquid chlorine and Muriatic acid. I don’t even measure the chlorine or acid, just pour a estimated amount of it once week as needed for acid.

 

[PoolGate]

CYA is the most frustrating part of maintaining pool chemistry in my experience. We did use tablets a couple weeks ago during a four day trip, then removed them upon return. According to PoolMath in order to reduce CYA even to 60 requires replacing 29% of the water in the pool - over 8200 gallons. That is not happening. Go to Leslies or pretty much any pool store and they'll tell you CYA doesn't matter - I know why they take that position. Last August our water was tested, CYA reported at 120 with a nice green check next to it.

The next issue is phosphates, something else for which there is no clear consensus or easy solution. Since our CYA is high, and pool store testing reported phosphates at over 1600 (perhaps all the organic material that falls in, plus the cicadas this year) we're going to follow the "insurance policy" and remove phosphates to under 1000 in an attempt to prevent algae. I'll probably get him the Taylor K-1106 kit and Orenda PR-10000. Water has been crystal clear since right after opening.

Pool store and tfp advice for the most part are not compatible. Algae always means not enough chlorine. Always. You can slice it whatever way you like, but the bottom line is there isn't enough chlorine. If reducing phosphates makes a difference it's because you don't have enough chlorine. And you can have enough chlorine with a high CYA number but at some point the chlorine level you need becomes ridiculous. That's why CYA level matters.

 

[BassPlayingDude]

Don't worry about Phosphates. Keep your FC at 9-11 ppm and you will be as fine as frog's hair.

As you lose CYA over the season from splash out, evaporation, pump out from big storms and fresh water refill, you will be able to lower that FC. Trust me, I had CYA 80 my first year of following TFP protocols and only used slightly more LC daily than I do now. By mid July, my CYA was at a more manageable 60ppm. Retest your CYA monthly. Relax, you got this! Pools are for relaxing, not stressing.

 

[BassPlayingDude]

CYA is the most frustrating part of maintaining pool chemistry in my experience. We did use tablets a couple weeks ago during a four day trip, then removed them upon return. According to PoolMath in order to reduce CYA even to 60 requires replacing 29% of the water in the pool - over 8200 gallons. That is not happening. Go to Leslies or pretty much any pool store and they'll tell you CYA doesn't matter - I know why they take that position. Last August our water was tested, CYA reported at 120 with a nice green check next to it.

The next issue is phosphates, something else for which there is no clear consensus or easy solution. Since our CYA is high, and pool store testing reported phosphates at over 1600 (perhaps all the organic material that falls in, plus the cicadas this year) we're going to follow the "insurance policy" and remove phosphates to under 1000 in an attempt to prevent algae. I'll probably get him the Taylor K-1106 kit and Orenda PR-10000. Water has been crystal clear since right after opening.

The reason Leslie's tells you CYA doesn't matter is that they want to sell you 30 pounds of "shock", dozens of bottles of "green to clean", several bottles of phosphate remover, and several bottles of "clarifier" each season. Trust me, I've been on that merry-go-round. You don't need any of that Crud. All you need is bleach and acid, and a clean, working filter.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, so I'm going to put my money where my mouth is...my pool looks like this:

 

[Mimi Pool]

I'm not sure how it was interpreted that I was considering following pool store methodology but more than one person did so I didn't communicate clearly. We are following through on the stated phosphate course of action, based on TFP input not pool store. This has become a fun hobby for my husband, I call him Heisenberg for you Breaking Bad fans.
I put a spreadsheet together based on PoolMath as to how much chlorine we can expect to use. If the pool uses 2.5ppm per day we'll need 91 oz per day or 5 gal per week. That's about $20/week for chlorine at current prices, $260 for July-August. Does that sound accurate based on other's experience? Hoping to get feedback from PoolGate as our location and pool size are quite similar.

 

[PoolGate]

I'm not sure how it was interpreted that I was considering following pool store methodology but more than one person did so I didn't communicate clearly. We are following through on the stated phosphate course of action, based on TFP input not pool store. This has become a fun hobby for my husband, I call him Heisenberg for you Breaking Bad fans.
I put a spreadsheet together based on PoolMath as to how much chlorine we can expect to use. If the pool uses 2.5ppm per day we'll need 91 oz per day or 5 gal per week. That's about $20/week for chlorine at current prices, $260 for July-August. Does that sound accurate based on other's experience? Hoping to get feedback from PoolGate as our location and pool size are quite similar.

lol - It is because you mentioned "pool store testing" several times. You should not consider any test they do to be accurate and rely only on your own testing. Worrying about phosphates is also a pool store thing. It is not a parameter that TFP considers. When we hear that we start on damage control to try to reaffirm to you that the pool store is not the place to go for anything. Every chemical you need is available from your local hardware store. Your pool store has nothing you need and it is tempting to think they are offering good advice when in reality they simply want to sell you product.

 

[BassPlayingDude]

It's very simple... if you keep FC at TFP recommended levels for your CYA, algae cannot bloom, no matter how much phosphate is in your water.

 

[Bperry]

I'm not sure how it was interpreted that I was considering following pool store methodology but more than one person did so I didn't communicate clearly. We are following through on the stated phosphate course of action, based on TFP input not pool store. This has become a fun hobby for my husband, I call him Heisenberg for you Breaking Bad fans.
I put a spreadsheet together based on PoolMath as to how much chlorine we can expect to use. If the pool uses 2.5ppm per day we'll need 91 oz per day or 5 gal per week. That's about $20/week for chlorine at current prices, $260 for July-August. Does that sound accurate based on other's experience? Hoping to get feedback from PoolGate as our location and pool size are quite similar.

I wasn’t aware TFP has any phosphate action except not to bother with it?

 

[BassPlayingDude]

Hey, it's your pool! If removing phosphates makes you more comfortable and happy then go for it! All we are saying is that it is unnecessary. As long as the product you are using does not contain copper, it prob ably won't do any harm...



Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a heck-broth boil and bubble.

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

 

[BassPlayingDude]

According to my research, phosphate removers leave behind Aluminum or Lanthanum salts. Aluminum exposure has been linked to Alzheimer's... Lanthanum exposure has been linked to neurological, cognitive and behavioral problems in rats. Therefore, I would not put that stuff in the pool MY kids swim in daily.



YMMV

 

[JoyfulNoise]

According to my research, phosphate removers leave behind Aluminum or Lanthanum salts. Aluminum exposure has been linked to Alzheimer's...

YMMV

At pool pH, aluminum and lanthanum both precipitate out as insoluble hydroxide, carbonate or phosphate compounds that have no physiological significance or absorption. They will not cause metal toxicity related health issues. Let’s please not grasp for “scare tactics” when having a discussion. If the OP wishes to treat for phosphates there is nothing wrong with that. In most cases it is unnecessary but it is not harmful (except to ones wallet).

 

[Mimi Pool]

One can mention topics in an effort to discredit them, which is exactly the case with my reference to Leslies. I also mentioned that I had the pool store do testing to get confirmation on CYA since the Taylor CYA test is the most difficult one to nail down and I was concerned my reading wasn't right (it matched, mission accomplished).
Here is the article I was referring to with regard to phosphates and "insurance policy." The phosphate remover I chose was recommended therein. It was not recommended nor purchased from the pool store.

Phosphate Removers - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Mimi Pool]

Just did the phosphate removal last week. Readings were in 1500-2000 ppb range, water crystal clear. Orenda warns not to put too much of the PR-10000 in so we put in slightly less than the dosing chart indicated. It clouded up just as they said where poured in around the perimeter (pump on low) then that spread throughout the pool so it all became cloudy. We let the pump run on its normal schedule which is high for several hours overnight. The next morning it was still cloudy and we could see "flocking" material on the bottom. Husband then removed the vacuum, put the pump on high, and brushed the entire pool toward the deep end drains. Pump pressure went up less than 5 psi while on high then eventually back to normal pressure. We'll clean the filters after the weekend since that is due.

Tested phosphates again, they barely registered, I'd say 100-250 ppb. Water is once again clear without the use of clarifier. We plan to test monthly and put in lesser amounts of PR-10000 for maintenance. Just to reiterate the goal - it is reported that phosphate is food for algae and our CYA is typically high (80-90) so we're hopeful that we can maintain FC at the lower end of what FC/CYA chart calls for. We spent about $55 for the test kit and PR-10000 and have half a bottle left.

 

[mknauss]

Great you think it works for you.
The use of phosphate removers as a maintenance item is not endorsed by TFPC. You may do as you like, but for others whom read this thread do not get sucked into the fallacy of removing phosphates and running low FC levels. You will have a poor outcome.

 

[PoolGate]

Just did the phosphate removal last week. Readings were in 1500-2000 ppb range, water crystal clear. Orenda warns not to put too much of the PR-10000 in so we put in slightly less than the dosing chart indicated. It clouded up just as they said where poured in around the perimeter (pump on low) then that spread throughout the pool so it all became cloudy. We let the pump run on its normal schedule which is high for several hours overnight. The next morning it was still cloudy and we could see "flocking" material on the bottom. Husband then removed the vacuum, put the pump on high, and brushed the entire pool toward the deep end drains. Pump pressure went up less than 5 psi while on high then eventually back to normal pressure. We'll clean the filters after the weekend since that is due.

Tested phosphates again, they barely registered, I'd say 100-250 ppb. Water is once again clear without the use of clarifier. We plan to test monthly and put in lesser amounts of PR-10000 for maintenance. Just to reiterate the goal - it is reported that phosphate is food for algae and our CYA is typically high (80-90) so we're hopeful that we can maintain FC at the lower end of what FC/CYA chart calls for. We spent about $55 for the test kit and PR-10000 and have half a bottle left.

So you spent $55 to avoid putting in an additional $40 worth of Chlorine.

 

[Mimi Pool]

mknauss I'm not sure how the hierarchy works here, perhaps you speak for TFPC. Are you aware of the following article on the site:

Phosphate Removers - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I have also found posts by Leebo, Richard320, Swampwoman, and Joyfulnoise (among others) who are not nearly as absolute as you on the topic. Read the following post by Leebo:

Phosphates.....are they worth removing??

So I'm volunteering two pools for the season, provided I can get experimental design help from mas985 or joyfulnoise. The strongest I can get is 200 g/L (~20%) 'rare earth salts' Phosphate remover (listed as 'lanthanum salt derivative' on the MSDS). Or I can get 15% that says simply 'lanthanum...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[PoolGate]

PoolGate, you have already shown that you have issues with reading comprehension and knee-jerk toward negativity which does not benefit the community at large. Please keep your snarky comments to yourself or start your own thread on the topic.

mknauss I'm not sure how the hierarchy works here, perhaps you speak for TFPC. Are you aware of the following article on the site:

Phosphate Removers - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I have also found posts by Leebo, Richard320, Swampwoman, and Joyfulnoise (among others) who are not nearly as absolute as you on the topic. Read the following post by Leebo:

Phosphates.....are they worth removing??

So I'm volunteering two pools for the season, provided I can get experimental design help from mas985 or joyfulnoise. The strongest I can get is 200 g/L (~20%) 'rare earth salts' Phosphate remover (listed as 'lanthanum salt derivative' on the MSDS). Or I can get 15% that says simply 'lanthanum...

www.troublefreepool.com

My takeaway from what you wrote was you are under the impression that there is some sort of prize for whomever is able to keep the lowest chlorine level. That prize is algae and an unsanitary pool. There is a reason this thread will probably be moved to the "agree to disagree" section; this site is not a general free-for-all for pool discussion. TFP has a method, and that method works. You can lead a horse to water and all..... Facebook and Reddit groups are a better place if you want to discuss alternative methods that frequently lead to algae. Since your posts #15 you have been pushing your local pool store as the source of your information. As I stated very early on in this post, TFP and pool store methods are generally incompatible. You should choose one and go with it.

 

[Leebo]

One item I feel VERY strongly about is that it’s in TFP’s best interest to be able to firmly explain the facts behind ANY pool related topic. We at TFP may strongly objet to using a product, but we’ve also gotta be ready to explain why in detail. We’ve gotta be prepared to explain to a user exactly what they’re going to expect if they use a product. Lastly, if a user is so hard headed that they continue to insist on using a product, I feel it’s in TFP’s interest to be able to guide them in the best approach in using the product.

Phosphate removers are no different, and the debate surrounding them will never end. The reason it’ll never end is because there’s really two correct answers. A user really can totally ignore phosphates and let chlorine do all the lifting. By following the FC/CYA ratio a user will rock a sparkling pool. I’m sure of it. That said, if a user has a very low phosphate level they’re a lot less likely to get algae IF they drop below the minimum of the FC/CYA ratio. Both statements are correct……..Let’s look at a statement from @Newdude that I’ve seen echoed over the last few weeks when speaking about minimum levels of the FC/CYA ratio,

It. Is. a. cliff. That you do NOT want to look over. Let the fools hang over it and take Insta Selfies. Stand plenty on the safe side and be ready to call 911 on their behalf.

In my eyes, the edge of a cliff offers some amazing views! It’s just best to make sure you’ve got solid backup plans just in case. For me, I don’t fear tinkering on the edge of a cliff. As an insurance policy however I’ve got low phosphate levels, just in case. I promise you I've fell off that cliff before and got algae, but I've also reaped some serious benefits. From less frequent chlorine additions (two or three times a week) to a lower chlorine usage per day (roughly 1.5ppm per day this year so far) are the two largest ones I've experienced since embracing the minimum levels as I've talked about elsewhere. This all said, @Mimi Pool...….please, no matter what you take from this entire thread please note this one thing. I've got algae before even with low phosphate levels when I allowed my chlorine to drop below the FC/CYA ratio for too long. Do NOT allow low phosphate levels be a substitute for proper chlorine levels.

 

[Newdude]

In my eyes, the edge of a cliff offers some amazing views! It’s just best to make sure you’ve got solid backup plans just in case

Of course !!! Once anybody has mastered the chemistry and are their own pools pro, I can completely respect both the bare minimum frugal approach (wanting to spend as little as possible), and also the people who enjoy the challenge of exactly how close they can dance that line near the cliff.

But both those people are trained professionals at that point. Until then, I will hardcore recommend several levels of training wheels and safety nets.

Heck, @mguzzy not only looks off the cliff, he *CLIMBS* then for fun. But he ‘knows the ropes’. Anyone starting their journey, or fine tuning their knowledge can only benefit from a safety harness.