Pentair Clean And Clear 420 Cartridge Filter Exploded, Brand New Filter Leaking Help

[JamesW]

Schedule 40 is correct. You can eliminate the first coupling and just put the 90 there.

The only question is if the bottom pipe will go under the heater exit pipe because it's going to be a little bit higher.

If the clearance is less than 1.25" now, it won't work.

You might be able to remove the first 90 out of the filter and 90 towards the front then 90 down to match the other pipe and then (2) 90s to complete the path.

 

[mknauss]

Do not use any DWV fittings or pipe. It stands for Drain, Waste, Vent. Only for zero pressure installations.

 

[Fadderall]

Ok I think I just simplified it a bit. I dont need the coupling and extra straight pipe. This latest picture shows just 3 90's and 2 straight pipes. Not sure what you meant going the other way and using 45's? I think you mean cut the first 90 off (right after heater bulkhead connection), then a new 90 pointing toward the valve. A short piece of straight pipe then a 45 angled toward the chlorinator area. Then straight pipe to the chlorinator then 45 pointing toward valve area. Then straight pipe, then 90? Why the diagonal and not 90 90 90? Also, cant seem to find 2" 45 at the box boys.

 

[JamesW]

I think that your plan should work. You can do (4) 90s to the front if necessary.

(4) 90s are doable but not ideal, especially at high flow rates. Low flow rates are less of a problem. 90s create resistance to flow. So, (4) 90s in a row is not great design, but ok if necessary.

Note:If the pipe has ASTM D 1785 on the pipe, it's suitable for pressure applications. A rating of ASTM D 2665 means non pressure applications.

A pipe can be dual rated ASTM D 1785 and ASTM D 2665, but it has to say ASTM D 1785 if it's going to be used for pressure.

The pipe should also be labeled NSF-PW (National Sanitation Foundation - Potable Water) and Schedule 40 PVC.

If a pipe is dual rated, it might say dwv, but it's ok if it says ASTM D 1785.

 

[Fadderall]

mknauss, Good to know. I double checked on that pipe and it says it is dual marked for DWV and Pressure. Should be ok?

• Conforms to meet Standards: ASTM D 1784, ASTM D 1785, ASTM D 2665 and NSF STANDARD 14 AND NSF STANDARD 61
  
• PVC Schedule 40 White pipe with red print that is Dual Marked for DWV and Pressure Applications

James, Good point. I hadnt thought of that. I will go measure now.

If I decide to go the other way and just go over the valve with a straight shot. I think I will need a new bulkhead and start fresh. If I cut the existing 90 and put a new one on, I think you are saying the new 90 will be 1.25" away from where the existing is now. Right now it lines up pretty straight with the valve. How dead on does it need to be? If the 90 and the valve are out of line by 1-2" and I put a straight pipe in between them of about 2' in length will that glue up and hold or is the diagonal stress going to weaken the joints?

 

[JamesW]

The pipe is correct. The plumbing plan will cause the lower pipe to be about 1.25" higher than it is now because you're cutting the pipe and the glue joint slips up by 1.25".

As long as the lower pipe has at least 1.5" of clearance below the heater exit, you should be ok.

 

[mknauss]

As JamesW much more eloquently explained, your are fine with that pipe.

We see a lot of plumbing (mostly done by pool builders) using DWV fittings.

 

[JamesW]

Also, check the heater's internal bypass valve.

If you remove the thermal regulator, you should be able to reach up and feel the round disc.

Or, you can open the top union and look inside to see if the bypass is intact.

The heater's internal bypass valve has a round disc that can break loose and travel down the plumbing.

Look in the check valve and in the chlorinator plumbing to see if the black disc with a stem is in the plumbing.

The 3 hp pump puts so much flow on the plumbing that it's likely that the heater bypass disc or check valve disc has broken loose and is blocking the flow of water.

 

[Fadderall]

I cut off the pipe with the chlorinator and flow valve. Nothing came out of the pipe in the way of a black disk. I didnt see any part of the flow valve broken. I cut and dry fit some pipe. Looks like I have clearance and should work. But, I have some questions.
1. It is hard to get the pipe all the way into the fitting. If I try to push a pipe in a fitting and then look at the other side, the pipe never gets all the way in to the stop. Does the pipe need to go that far in the fitting?
2. The glue I got is the purple primer and red hot blue cristy stuff. Says it drys real fast. How much working time do I have to get these pipes together? They do not just slide together with a twist like I see in videos.
3. Would it be wise to put together the pipes on the bench then glue the last 90 to the valve side, then attach the bulkhead to the heater?
4. Is that turn too short for all those 90's? (see picture).

I will look at the heater as well before gluing up. The check valve at the pool equipment is on the spa side so I dont think that is having an impact now. The return goes underground then up to an infloor manifold in the pool area then back down to the infloor cleaners. Those are my only return.
BTW paint was easy to take off the PVC pipe. Sand paper, paint scraper, towel and acetone. Clean as a whistle.


Thanks

 

[JamesW]

Looks like you have a good plan.

The glue dissolves the pipe and fitting surfaces. So, the parts slip together pretty easily once you get the glue on.

You have to push hard to get the pipe to bottom out. You don't have much time. Usually just a few seconds. So, you have to be quick.

You have to hold the fittings together for about 60 seconds to make sure that they stay together. The pipe can back out if you don't hold in in for at least 60 seconds.

I would probably do the back two 90s as the final two glue joints. You would glue the 90s on the pipe and then glue the two 90s on the two parallel pipes as the last two glue joints.

If you don't want to do two fittings at one time, you can undo the union at the heater and do the 90 there last by gluing the fitting and then tightening the union.

You might be able to get the last 90 on by flexing the pipe, but you might not be able to flex it enough without overstressing it.

Either process is easier with two people.

It's a little bit tricky, but doable. Everything has to be measured correctly and the angles need to be correct.

I would suggest that you get some 1.5" 90s and some pipe to do some practice glue joints before the actual thing if you have never glued before.

Get (4) 90s and make a square for practice. If you can do that, you should be good.

Another thing to check is the in-floor cleaner head unit. It might be clogged. There should be a cup screen in the union going to the top of the cleaner distribution valve.

Glue tip: Measure the length of the pvc pipe before you glue the fitting on the pipe so that you can verify how deep the pipe went into the fitting.

For example if the pipe is 3-1/4", make a note and then measure the pipe again after the fitting. The pipe should now stick out of the fitting 2", which means that the pipe is 1.25" deep in the fitting.

 

[Fadderall]

James,
I see what your saying about the last 2 90's good idea. But, I already glued up the piece. So I have it glued. I watched the video from the glue manufacturer (Christy Hot Blue Glue and Purple Primer). I think I did it right. Is there any way to verify that its good or do I just hook it up and turn it on? I already have this piece so the plan is to glue this piece on by the valve then take off the union and do the last joint. Other than the glue mess how do these pipes look?

 

[JamesW]

Looks like you're doing well.

Due to the pressure, I would wait at least an hour before pressurizing. 12 hours is better.

Then, start it up to see if it seems like you're getting good flow or if it seems blocked.

If it still seems blocked, check the distribution valve for in-floor cleaners. Check the union screen.

 

[Fadderall]

I will wait until tomorrow to let it all setup nice. Ill check the infloor today.
The disturbing thing from before is that the filter is leaking at the band. This is the brand new factory fresh unit that I installed. Is it normal that they would leak brand new? None of the install instructions talk about opening the new filter at install. I tightened the coil bolt on the band so no space between coils, but it still leaked out the side. Just wondering if anyone has had the same problem and did you just re-seat the filter halves or does this indicate something wrong with my filter? I know 30psi is high but still near half of the max rated 50ppsi of the unit so I wouldnt think the pressure alone would make it leak.

 

[JamesW]

30 psi is too high for normal operation. The maximum rated pressure is not really intended to be an operating pressure.

Typically, the new filter should not leak, but you are putting a lot of pressure on it.

You probably need to open it up and do a light coating of silicone lubricant on the o-ring or the surfaces where the o-ring touches.

I would recommend that you go to a much smaller pump or a variable speed pump.

The only time that you might want the full flow is if you have spa jets that you want powered.

The current pump probably uses close to 3,000 watts. A variable speed pump can run closer to 300 watts for circulation. For heating, you might need to go to about 800 watts.

Note: The 3hp wf-12 WhisperFlo can generate about 44 psi at complete blockage. At 40 psi, the pump can still do about 70 gpm. The pump can do up to 160 gpm. So, it's an incredibly strong pump.

At 30 psi (total head loss) the pump will do about 120 gpm. Probably about 70 gpm assuming -10 psi on the suction side and 30 psi on the filter gauge.

Are you sure that the pump is a wf-12 3 hp pump?

 

[Fadderall]

I just checked the pump and yes I have 2 and the label says
MODEL: WFE-12
HORSEPOWER: 3
SERVICE FACTOR: 1.15 (I have no idea what service factor is all about)

I have a rectangular pool about 10,000 gallons. There is also a raised spa.
The main 3hp pump intakes water from the drain and skimmer in the main pool.
The return is through a polaris in floor cleaning system. The pumpkin manifold for this sends the water alternating zones including the spa as one of the zones. The spa spillway returns water to the pool.

The second 3hp pump is for the spa jets.

The pool equipment is pretty far from the pool. I would have to measure and guess (not sure exactly where the pool lines are laid in). Maybe 100' from pool to equipment. Maybe 18" rise from pool surface to pump.

The setup was put in 8-9 years ago and ran like a champ until recently.

I got the pipe welded up ready to reconnect the bulkhead to the heater as soon as its fully cured. I had to trim the pipe connection flow valve side because of the dry fit issue. I did not realize until long into this that the dry fit would not give a true measurement because the pieces will not fully seat unless lubed up with the glue. It was about 1/4" per connection. So I trimmed the last piece and made it work. There is about 1/4-1/2" space between the bulkhead fitting and the heater. I think that the pipe will give enough flex in that direction to seat the seal. What do you think? Picture attached.

I checked the union at the infloor and there was NO BASKET in the top of the pipe. I have serviced that unit several times since owning and would never leave out the basket. I get a new one with the rebuild. I think the last guy that helped me with the pumps might have gone in there and left it out. I looked in the hole and there is no way that basket could have totally disappeared through the infloor. It is a mess of delicate plastic gears and pins. There would be evidence of it if it went through. I put a spare basket in that I had in a rebuild kit I had on the shelf.

I looked in the heater through the bulkhead holes with my phone and light. I am not sure exactly what I was looking for but I did not see any obvious damage. It looks clean and serene up there to me. Pictures attached.

Once it cures (maybe tomorrow afternoon) I can reconnect everything and see if the filter still leaks and shows the same PSI. If so, I can remove and re seat the filter top and see if that stops the leak. If it all works with the pump, I am not sure its justified to get a new pump. The system has worked for 8 years and the pumps are still chugging away. What would be the next step down 2hp?

One more thing I forgot to mention. It has been going on so long I had forgotten. The spa loses water if the pumps are off. If the pump is off then the spa water level will drop maybe half way to the bottom. The spa is elevated above the pool. I have had a few different companies look at this. Replaced a check valve here, diverter valve there but never actually fixed the problem. This has been a couple years now. But, if I keep the pumps on a regular schedule it keeps the spa full. Could this have something to do with the high PSI? If I want to check the check valves can I just open them up and look inside or are there gaskets that need to be replaced once opened? How about the Jandy diverter valve can I just undo all the screws and lift it up to see inside the valve?

Thanks as always!
HEATER INLET

HEATER OUTLET

SPACING AT HEATER BULKHEAD

TIGHT COUPLING-IS THIS TOO CLOSE???

THE WHOLE PIPE

 

[JamesW]

The heater bypass looks intact. So, that's good.

The pipe might flex to connect the union. Just don't over stress it. Will the heater shift any or will that throw off the top connection?

You might be able to shift the heater a little bit and the filter (drained, not full) and the pump to get everything to line up.

The Jandy check valve on the spa line can be opened and the flapper can be replaced.

Once you get the pump started, you should be able to tell if it's operating properly since you are familiar with the normal operation.

That's a really strong pump. So, the pressure will be high for normal operation.

Maybe there is an issue with the cleaner mechanism if the screen was missing and debris got in the gears.

Based on the size of the pump, you might not have a clog. The pressure just runs high. The cleaner system puts extra pressure on the system as well.

Since you are familiar with the system, you are the best one to judge.

 

[Dodger]

James has you covered. I just wanted to share some comments from a fellow in-floor cleaner owner with a CCP420 and a healthy fear of too much pressure accumulating in my filter.

If it were me, I'd want to establish the filter pressure without all the downstream resistance that the floor system adds. Perhaps the "clog" is in those lines. So I would do one or both of the following as an experiment:

1) Remove 1 pop-up in each zone so there is an easy path for water flow in each zone
2) Remove the guts of the valve manifold inside the dome so the water can disperse to all zones and pop-ups at once. I know other members here have done that, screwed on the dome lid, and turned the pump on without the guts inside.

I would watch filter pressure in each of these cases. In the first case, I would especially make note of whether the filter pressure changes significantly from zone to zone in case it reveals a station with a significantly higher resistance. You may have a clog or some pop-ups that aren't popping up and putting significant back-pressure on the line.

You could also try 1 and 2 together in order to establish a baseline filter pressure. It could be in the low 20s.

For your spa drainage issue, I didn't see any pictures of your floor cleaner manifold, but there should be a check valve after that dome. It will shoot off of the one return line that goes to the spa zone. If you haven't inspected or replaced that check valve, I would certainly take a look at it.

 

[Fadderall]

James and Dodger thanks for the guidance. I got everything connected today and fired it up. The filter still leaked bad. I opened the filter checked the big o ring and mounting surfaces. All looked great except a few pieces of white flake on the O Ring. Looked like chips of paint or PVC shavings. Cleaned and lubed then put the band on tappy tap and bam no leaks.
I got up the courage to close the air relief valve on the filter.
The gauge stabilized at about 34. Every time it changed infloor zones it bounced up to about 48 or so and back down. Thats normal I think.
You guys got me all freaked out about the PSI and for the life of me I cannot remember if it was always this high. Im afraid to leave it running, even though the motors all settled down after a minute and the system purred like a kitten. So, is this crazy high pressure or maybe correct pressure for what I have? I gotta get the pool circulating but I keep thinking about things blowing up back there.

Dodger I attached pics of the check valve by the dome. This spa draining has been going on for a long time. I had someone come out and look at that check valve and from what I remember he changed that and the diverter valve in the back. He said for sure it was the valve in back. But, clearly the fix never worked. I will get the part and just replace the flap tomorrow. There is another check valve in the back just below the Jandy valve on the return side. This one is half burried in the ground. Not sure if this could cause the spa to drain. The pool return goes to the Jandy valve. One side of the valve is the infloor main return. The other side says spa return. In normal filter operation that Jandy valve is always in the ON to infloor OFF to spa return position. So, even if that check valve is bad the Jandy valve should still prevent water coming back along that line shouldnt it?
BTW. If I decide to open all these valves, how much water comes out? Any procedure to minimize the water? Should I release the pressure valve on the filter before opening the valves or should I leave it closed?

If I get up the nerve to leave the system running I will try the floor head removal test tomorrow.

CHECK VALVE AT INFLOOR DOME

CHECK VALVE IN BACK UNDER JANDY DIVERTER VALVE

jANDY DIVERTER VALVE

 

[Dodger]

I'm sure James will give you better guidance, but I would be scared at 48psi!! I would not want to run it at all.

BTW, do you know what the pressure is in Spa Mode? In that mode, you are bypassing the infloor system and it could tell you a little bit about how the infloor is adding to filter pressure.

Theoretically, I think you are right that if the diverter is OFF to the Spa Return, then the integrity of that check valve right after it on the spa side shouldn't matter. But theoretically, they could both be failing, or the Jandy valve diverter flap could be misaligned with the handle OFF position (not sure about this). That isn't too hard to open up and check.

That check valve by the infloor manifold has a lot of dirt and mud. How recently did the worker service it?

 

[JamesW]

44 psi is max for that pump.

The pressure definitely makes me nervous.

I'm surprised that you haven't had more problems.

When changing zones, the flow is blocked for a second.

You really should have an external bypass on the heater and a check valve bypass on the cleaner that limits the psi to less than 30.

I would go to a smaller pump. I would feel better with a Whisperflo with a total hp of about 1.25 hp.

Did the heater union connect ok without too much stress?