Ozone FUD

[Robotty]

We are getting closer to having a pool for this summer, the plumbing, shotcrete, coping, decking, and tile are all done and now we are getting to the equipment. Our pool builder does about 100 pools a year in the area, and I have been to 10 or so of his recently completed pools. He does amazing work and I can't find a single negative review of him anywhere. He strongly suggests a Clear Water Technologies ozone system (CD-12 generator w/30 gal contact tank, oxygen concentration, gas destruct, and Aqua Fusion diffuser). He then couples that with an IPS M820 chlorine/acid feeder with ORP sensor and dual pumps. The other pool owners I've visited that have this system all rave about how there is zero chlorine in the pool and the pool contractor says SWCG used to be his go to, but he has been having a lot of problems with them lately.

The catch to all of this is the astronomical price tag for this set up (almost $20k extra). I was so put off by the price that I actually put the entire project on hold and brought in 6 other contractors that also each do 50+ pools a year, 3 local and 3 from an hour+ away. EVERY SINGLE ONE told me the same story about SWCG giving them nothing but headaches lately and that ozone systems are taking over. They all bid roughly similar systems, some CWT some Del AOP50, that were all in the $12-20k range. ... and all had either the IPS M820 or Hayward Cat 2000 ORP/PH controllers as a "supplement".

Additionally, all the research I do says most newer commercial pools use ozone systems, as do municipal water treatment facilities... but then I come here and search for "ozone" and find:

• mknauss: "Once again - consider a SWCG. The ozone/UV device comsumes electricity and chlorine, and does little else."
• Jimrahbe: "You do not want Ozone or UV or any other magic systems that pretend to do something that they don't.. The salt cell is all you will need... I have three saltwater pools and if I built another 100 pools they would all be saltwater pools."
• Donaldson: "Ozone and UV offer zero help in outdoor residential pools. The units installed in residential pools are extremely low powered anyway so even the limited benefits they would offer are non-existent."
• Richard320: "Ozone might be handy in a commercial pool with a huge bather load, to oxidize waste -- sweat, snot, dead skin, whatever -- but bleach is already a good oxidizer, and you have to have bleach since ozone doesn't linger, so why bother?"

and I've read Alternative sanitizers and "chemical free" pools--The Truth!

When I do the math on the cost of the ozone equipment and labor to install it, these contractors might be pocketing an extra $1,500 on the upsell - on an already $50-60k bid (yes, that is from our current state to complete - LA pool prices are outrageous). I get that $1,500 multiplied by 50+ pools a year is quite a bit of money, but is that really worth your reputation if these systems don't work? What am I missing here?

 

[zea3]

Hi, welcome to TFP! The most concerning part of your post is this, "The other pool owners I've visited that have this system all rave about how there is zero chlorine in the pool and the pool contractor says SWCG used to be his go to, but he has been having a lot of problems with them lately." Either those pool owners do not understand that they do have chlorine in the pool (from the IPS M 820 chlorine/acid feeder) or they have been told their system is chlorine free. I sincerely hope it is the former. In order for a pool to be sanitary and safe there needs to be an EPA approved residual sanitizer such as chlorine, bromine, or biguanide. Ozone systems may allow the pool to run with a lower level of FC, but it cannot safely run with 0 FC.

Our position is not that these systems don't work, but that they are not needed in a properly chlorinated pool. You could use just the IPS M820 to chlorinate the pool and be just fine, or you could use an SWCG, or a Liquidator, or Stenner pump. There are many ways to automate chlorine delivery to the pool. It is true that SWCG get blamed for crumbling stone decks due to salt water concentration in the pool. Saltwater is not compatible with soft stone such as sandstone or limestone. SWCGs are not a set and forget method of pool care. Frequent water tests are still needed, SWCG output needs adjusting to meet the needs of the pool, and calcium levels need to be monitored. The very high pH inside the SWCG chamber will cause scale to form on the generating plates over time. If the plates are not cleaned they will fail. then the pool will turn green.

Any system you use will need regular maintainance. The system your builder is proposing is expensive with more parts to maintain and potentially break. Our position at TFP is that pool owners can maintain their pools without expensive pool store chemicals and that a properly chlorinated pool does not need ozone. The cost savings of using less chlorine is not offset by the cost of the ozone system, so to our way of thinking, it is not needed.

 

[Robotty]

Thanks for the feedback. That was bad wording on my part, it is more of a sentiment of "no chlorine" because it doesn't smell or have any effect on skin. The builder is very clear about the chlorine being there to pick up the residual.

Also, my entire back yard is limestone, including the pool coping... So, SWCG is out because of that as well.

 

[Jimrahbe]

R,

To be honest, I do not know anything about the $20K system your pool builder wants to install... Our recommendation about Ozone and UV is based upon the normal cheap systems that get installed in most pools, that cost $1K or so. Those systems are toy-like and really have very little impact on the pool water.. What I like to call, All Magic, but no Rabbit..

The thing that struck me was the complexity of the system.. Really??? A "Clear Water Technologies ozone system (CD-12 generator w/30 gal contact tank, oxygen concentration, gas destruct, and Aqua Fusion diffuser). He then couples that with an IPS M820 chlorine/acid feeder with ORP sensor and dual pumps." That is sure a mouthful of Marketing talk, and what could possible go wrong with that???

To give your pool builder some credit, the IPS M820 appears to be two devices that add Liquid Chlorine and Muriatic Acid to your pool.. Funny, that is exactly the same method that we recommend.. What we don't recommend is the ORP probe or automatic control system.. They tend to be Intermittent and need constant calibration.

A lot of our members do the same thing with Stenner pumps and manual control for $2K or less.. The only downside is that you can't brag about your "Magic"..

It sounds to me like the Pool Builder's system marries you to them for life, for the inevitable maintenance of the system.. Where most of our members are more DIY and love to take care of their own pools..

Oh... and people that maintain their pools using the TFP method have zero chlorine smell as well..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[MinerJason]

Thanks for the feedback. That was bad wording on my part, it is more of a sentiment of "no chlorine" because it doesn't smell or have any effect on skin. The builder is very clear about the chlorine being there to pick up the residual.

Also, my entire back yard is limestone, including the pool coping... So, SWCG is out because of that as well.

I'm not for or against ozone systems, but wanted to say that properly maintained pools don't have any smell or adverse impacts on skin/eyes. The "chlorine smell" and eye or skin irritation in improperly maintained pools isn't from chlorine, it's actually from chloramines, which are created when chlorine reacts with organic material in the pool. If chlorine levels are properly maintained, there shouldn't be a lot of chloramines created, and those that are should be broken down quickly by the free available chlorine. It's only when there's a lot of organics in the pool and not enough chlorine that excess chloramines become an irritant.

And FWIW either your pool builders system or the TFP method will result in your pool water gaining a significant salt content over time from chlorine additions. I'd suggest sealing your limestone coping/decking/etc now to help prevent salt damage in the future.

 

[sktn77a]

I, too, am not familiar with these systems but $20,000 plus servicing/maintenance/repairs (inevitable), electricity (?), and any operational supplies, is a heck of a lot to pay for something that isn't really needed if you believe the TFP approach (and, based on simple chemistry, it's sound). I would go for the simple approach with the option to add these other niceties in the future, should you feel so inclined.

 

[Robotty]

I really like the idea of simply stubbing out for it now and potentially adding it later. The equipment area obviously has the space, so if we just did the IPS M820 now, we can always add ozone in the future.

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!
In your area, you may get away with the IPS thing attempting manage your FC and pH. You do not say if you will have an autocover, as that will enhance ability for success.
But in Los Angeles, you have minimal sunshine during the summer. The marine layer assures that. So a lower CYA may work, most of the year. If you are further inland with minimal marine layer, you will have issues.

The SWCG and salt water and stone thing is all a red herring. Poor water chemistry maintenance and cheap soft stone, which will damage with any consistent water being applied to it, is the cause of stone issues. But it makes for great marketing talk. Using liquid chlorine and no real rain or other losses (unless you will have a sand / DE filter and your pool service does massive water changeouts) your salinity in the pool water will exceed 1000 ppm in a fairly short time frame.

Good luck.

 

[Robotty]

The limestone is Bulgarian Vratza (see "Crema Extra" at Predsednik for the same stone, although it didn't come from this quarry). The physical and mechanical properties as well as the characteristics are all listed at the bottom of that page. The stone has also been sealed with Miracle Sealants 511 Porous Plus. We actually selected limestone because our landscape designer insisted that pure calcium carbonate stones have no significant quantities of naturally occurring metals (silica or iron oxide), which means it doesn't react to salt. This site is the first place I heard otherwise.

Location:

• Los Angeles
• About 1/2 miles from the beach
• Partially shaded - about 30% in the summer and 50% in the winter
• Lots of marine layer (usually burns off by about noon)

Pool/spa specs:

• Pool is 93' 4" of perimeter (roughly 33' x 14') and about 700sf of PebbleSheen with about 150sf of waterline glass tile
  • 4-6ft deep for most of it
  • 6' x 13' is an 18" deep Baja shelf
  • 1 skimmer with 2-1/2" suction and 2" return
  • 4 surface return lines
  • 2 heat return lines in pool floor
  • 2" dedicated vacuum line for auto cleaner
  • float based auto-fill
  • overflow pipe
  • 2 water feature suction lines (3")
  • There is a single 36" wide waterfall (PVC box)
• Spa is 35' 4" of perimeter (roughly 8.5' x 8.5') and about 170sf of PebbleSheen with about 30sf of waterline glass tile
  • 15 jets in spa
  • 3" suction & return in spa
  • 16' long overflow spillway in to the pool (covered in glass tile)
• Approximately 15,500 gallons between the pool and spa
• All shotcrete got three layers of Miracote Membrane-C (with poly fabric in corners and around penetrations) and one coat of Miracote BC-Pro with silica added for plaster adhesion
• No cover

For the equipment:

• 60A sub panel
• Jandy RS8 PS w/ Aqualink
• Jandy HI-E2 (350k BTU) heater
• Jandy 2.7 HP variable speed circulation/filtration pump
• Jandy 3 HP jet pump
• Jandy 1.5 HP variable speed booster pump for waterfall
• Jandy 580 cartridge filter
• 5 Savi Sol color changing LED lights

Water sanitation (plan before I posted here):

• IPS M820 automated chlorine and acid feeder with ORP sensor
  • two feeder pumps
  • two 15 gal tanks
• CWT Ozone system with Aqua Fusion hyper dissolved oxygen system
  • CWT CD-12 generator
  • Contact tank with off gas vent (and gas destruct if area isn't properly ventilated ... but it is outdoors, so I suspect it is)
  • Oxygen concentrator
  • Aqua Fusion diffuser

 

[Robotty]

Since I've received a few private messages asking me what we opted for, I figure it is time for an update.

We decided against the Ozone. I just couldn't justify the extra $18k. Went with traditional chlorine and an IPS 820 chemical controller with 2 pumps. Been about 9 months now, including my 120lb dog pretty much living in the pool and about 10 kids per day throughout the summer, and only 1-2 days of use in each of Dec, Jan, Feb, and Mar. ORP and pH have been almost near perfect and zero chlorine or chemical smell.

The only thing I would change is to a Jandy ChemLink C1900 (or C2000) instead of the IPS system so that I get ORP and pH readouts in iAquaLink and on my Crestron screens. If the IPS unit ever dies, I will be replacing it with a Jandy one.

 

[mguzzy]

Thanks for the update.. and does it smell like chlorine? I think not!