Our pool has been black for a month

[YippeeSkippy]

i (wife) obsessively read this forum during the summer, do all the testing, add chemicals and decide what needs to be done.

My husband does all the heavy lifting, vacuuming, taking filters out of the filter for cleaning, carrying 40 lb bags to edge of pool for me to dump in, etc.

Same here @Deb04 . He likes to say I've got the brains, he's got the brawn. It works.

Maddie

 

[SoDel]

Just trying to cover all the bases, how much does water cost in Vermont? Where I am the thinking for your pool might go something like this: water is about $8 / 1,000, liquid chlorine is about $5 / 1, above ground pool makes a full drain and clean and refill practical, drain, clean and refill would be under a hundred bucks, doing the SLAM would likely cost a lot less but be more work, your other water chemistry #s are not yet known (get that test kit) so you may need to do a partial drain and refill anyway — in the net, drain, clean and refill may be something to consider among the options. Might get you swimming sooner and your pool season is even shorter than ours here.

 

[Dirk]

Just trying to cover all the bases, how much does water cost in Vermont? Where I am the thinking for your pool might go something like this: water is about $8 / 1,000, liquid chlorine is about $5 / 1, above ground pool makes a full drain and clean and refill practical, drain, clean and refill would be under a hundred bucks, doing the SLAM would likely cost a lot less but be more work, your other water chemistry #s are not yet known (get that test kit) so you may need to do a partial drain and refill anyway — in the net, drain, clean and refill may be something to consider among the options. Might get you swimming sooner and your pool season is even shorter than ours here.

Excellent points. But for the record, even a complete drain and refill might still require a SLAM afterwards. It would not be as labor intensive, or require as much chlorine, but there might be some lurking algae, no matter how well the empty pool was scrubbed, that would require a short SLAM to address. So that's a little extra math. That said, draining a vinyl pool can create some structural issues that could end up being considerably more expensive than even a full-on bust-yer-butt SLAM, so there's that. Just be sure to understand and weigh the options carefully before you proceed.

Personally, and I have a concrete pool, I wouldn't drain mine unless there was absolutely no other option. Water is part of the structure of any pool, and there can be consequences from removing such an integral component of the structure.

 

[SpongyMothKilledOurPool]

Just trying to cover all the bases, how much does water cost in Vermont? Where I am the thinking for your pool might go something like this: water is about $8 / 1,000, liquid chlorine is about $5 / 1, above ground pool makes a full drain and clean and refill practical, drain, clean and refill would be under a hundred bucks,

I was wondering about draining before I started researching & wound up here. We haven't looked into it seriously, largely because the logistics of "where does the dirty water get pumped out to?" seems daunting. However, my husband also thought that the cost of refilling might be prohibitive, because just topping the pool off (maybe 10-18 inches? maybe a couple of feet?) at the start of the summer makes the water bill jump about $100. So refilling the whole thing would probably run at least $300-400 just in the cost of water alone, on top of the cost of actually getting the drainage done (I imagine, also a few hundred bucks). And given the age of this ol' thang, I wouldn't be surprised if the potential structural concerns of drainage would be... you know, concerning!

I've ordered tests, the whole big fancy kit n caboodle. My husband doesn't know yet... We'll have to discuss and I might definitely have some persuading to do re: ditching all the advice/techniques he's been working so hard to learn these last few years. It's not that he isn't committed to fixing this pool... It's rather that he's been doing it all himself since we bought this house, and it has been tons of work. I think it's going to be hard to hear me coming off of one of my internet research spirals and saying "Hey honey, I think you've been doing it all wrong. I'm confident that my several hours of reading trumps your 5 years of blood, sweat, & tears (and advice from supposed experts)!"

When I poke around on Reddit, & Amazon reviews of the TFP book, I see a few complaints that TFP is "cultish" and possibly in the pockets of... saltwater pump manufacturers, I guess? Although in my (currently limited) exposure so far, I'd expect anyone claiming conflict of interest or commercial bias to focus on the test kit vendors that your supporters get discount codes for, or something...

(Not trying to throw shade, just sharing my thought process as I try to educate & orient myself to this world.)

BUT anyways, I haven't yet come across anyone actually saying the advice & science proffered here are flawed, just that you all tend to be more condemning of "conventional" methods than they deserve. To be fair, until this year's caterpillar fiasco, our pool was just fine following Pool World's advice.

But intuitively, it really does appeal to me to be more in control of testing, & be able to do it on the spot, & actually understanding the details, & re-test frequently; rather than just dropping off a sample at the pool store a few times per season. And when the water is visibly filthy like now, they say don't even bother testing it, keep shocking & running the pump till it looks clearer!

I do think that currently the fine sediment of dissolved caterpillar poop probably poses as much, or more, of a A physical problem than a chemical/balance problem. Although maybe the poop is also feeding algae to an extreme degree, severely compounding the filtration problem in a way that seriously upping the chlorine would mitigate?

I've purchased a self-contained hand vacuum that should get here in a few days, as well as some supplemental filters that will supposedly help capture very fine silt. Hopefully that'll help get the layer of gunk off the bottom.
We already had a vacuum, but husband wasn't using it because it's one that just sucks water into the pump to be filtered--and our main problem is how fast that pump filter clogs already, ergo this wouldn't actually do anything to make our lives easier!

He's been swapping & cleaning filters daily, but it looks like in a perfect world we'd want to be doing it 4x/day. After we replaced it yesterday, around 4PM, we came home after dinner, maybe around 8, and he pointed out how you could already see just from looking at the pool how it had lost flow almost entirely--in other words, clogged again in under 4 hours.
The problem with changing the filter more is A) It's a MASSIVE pain in the neck. Beyond just how long it takes & how messy it is, it is actually really hard to unscrew the cap to get the filter out. And the caterpillar hairs. He suits up (in the heat) in a windbreaker & gloves to do it, to avoid getting itchy dermatitis all over. And B) It's time-consuming! We both work full time, we have a small child, we have a million other household things going on... We're comfortable but we aren't rich enough to outsource our laundry cooking yardwork cleaning & pet care. And we don't have 4 hours every day to rotate filters.

So... I have high hopes for the non-pump-dependent vacuum to help us make some big progress here by sucking the silt layer off the bottom, independently of changing the chemical regimen. (I will also be doing the hairnet trap basket thing-- I got the pool-specific ones and the hairnet ones, to compare performance on each! Note for posterity: I've seen a warning not to put these nets around the outside of the basket, as there is a good chance of it getting sucked down into the pipes! So I'm hoping it's not hard to secure to the inside of the basket.)

I think I had some questions I wanted to ask, but I need to get a move on some non-pool chores today, so maybe I'll save them till after I get through more of the Pool School articles. By the by, is there a cheatsheat/glossary anywhere for all the acronyms in use around here? I keep forgetting what different ones stand for & having to look it up all over again. (EDIT-nevermind, I found the glossary)

 

[SpongyMothKilledOurPool]

Whoops, I already thought of a question. Unrelated to black water.
I was poking around some other posts on here & saw one where they calculated their pool as 14,000 gallons, for a 24 x 52 foot pool. I used the formula of H x W x D x7.5 to arrive at about 11,000 gallons for our 16x24 footer. How is this possible? Would that make sense if the larger pool had a slope, with a fair bit of shallow area? Ours has no slope and it's all shallow, I think 3.5 to 4 ft (waist high on a grownup).

 

[SoDel]

FWIW, I knew basically nothing about pool care this Spring and started by taking the Orenda online course (got a fancy certificate and all!). That lead me to this site. I spent a lot of time digging into the basis for the recommendations here (just something that interests me so I dug in) and I’m finding that almost all the contrary “conventional wisdom” is like when medical practitioners used bloodletting to cure disease. Based on all the science available, the recommendations here are sound. They also happen to work really well in practice, at least for me.

I don’t necessarily agree 100% with all of them but there seems to be more than enough flexibility to accommodate sound deviation (e.g. I run my FC a little higher than “The Chart” but still well below SLAM levels and I’ve calculated for myself the equilibrium levels of the chemicals involved at pool pH (sevens up to 8) and that up to SLAM levels are indeed very safe (for swimming in); I keep my saturation index a little tighter than recommended here but nobody will knock you for keeping it in a tighter range if you’re into doing it that way; I run my CYA a little lower than most would suggest for a salt pool but my pool isn’t in the sunbelt and it works for me).

I’d say stick around and you will get solid advice. The only way to convince your husband may be to show success with fairly easy methods — that result is a very high probability .

 

[SpongyMothKilledOurPool]

I'm pretty well convinced to give this a go, once I have a better understanding of some of the process & principles.

I just remembered another question. Can anyone re-explain in plain English, or think of a good metaphor to illustrate, what is the difference between pH and Total Alkalinity?? I've read the definitions provided but it's not quite clicking for me.

I had understood pH to just be a scale that measures how alkaline (higher pH) versus acidic (lower pH) something is. So I'm not grasping why Total Alkalinity is a separate value to test for & adjust, distinct from raising or lowering pH.

 

[kul]

My feeling is give it a solid try. If it works for you, mission accomplished! If it doesn’t, try whatever else you’d prefer, but TFP only supports the TFP method so we won’t be able to help when you get algae or whatever else, unfortunately.
Regarding SWG, they are a choice. I don’t have one and no one has kicked me off of here yet.

 

[mknauss]

what is the difference between pH and Total Alkalinity??

PH TA Relationship - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[SoDel]

I'm pretty well convinced to give this a go, once I have a better understanding of some of the process & principles.

I just remembered another question. Can anyone re-explain in plain English, or think of a good metaphor to illustrate, what is the difference between pH and Total Alkalinity?? I've read the definitions provided but it's not quite clicking for me.

I had understood pH to just be a scale that measures how alkaline (higher pH) versus acidic (lower pH) something is. So I'm not grasping why Total Alkalinity is a separate value to test for & adjust, distinct from raising or lowering pH.

The best I can think of is look at total alkalinity as the stuff that gets used up if pH is lowered. The more total alkalinity available, the harder it is to lower pH. Maybe like adding water to dry flour. Think of the flour as the alkalinity. Think of the water as something acidic. The pH is like how much is the flour wetted. If you start with a lot of dry flour, it will take a lot of water to wet it. Once that dry flour is wetted, it’s no longer dry flour, used up. With less dry flour in the mix, it takes a lot less water to make it wet. Also, adding more flour will tend to make it dryer (raise pH in this analogy).

 

[Deb04]

I totally get your concerns. I worry sometimes that we can come across as a little cult like, especially with the buy one of these kits or we won’t help you thing. Most people express that a lot more politely and explain why we can’t help without a test kit, but a few don’t. This is the reason that way back in 2008 I bought a Taylor K 2006 kit from Amazon instead of the TF kit. I thought at least if these people are nuts I haven’t gone off the deep end by buying their kit. I didn’t know at that point that this site doesn’t get any money from the sale of TF Kits. We’re probably doing ourselves a disservice by having the names of the two sites so close to each other. It makes it look like we’re telling you you have to give us money. You can be a full member of this site and never pay a penny to TFPools.

What I like about this site is that they will explain to you why you’re doing what you’re doing to the depth that you want to hear it. Some people here are chemist and will get into the formula to explain EVERYTHING. Most of that stuff is in the section called the deep end. I am a STEM person, so I thought oh I’m totally ready for the deep end. But I’m a mathematician not a chemist and was totally lost after a few posts. Point is, people here know that stuff.

I was lucky that I found this site when our pool was first built so I’ve never been pool stored. I go to the pool store occasionally to test my water for metals because I am on a well. I have been told that I need $25 per bag salt, where I buy that salt at Home Depot for eight dollars. When I said I buy salt at Home DepotI was told that I needed to be careful because that stuff isn’t buffered. Buffered? What exactly are you using to buffer salt. I was also told a different time that my chlorine was way too high. (It wasn’t). I was told to turn off my saltwater generator and put shock in. So, you just told me my chlorine is too high and the solution to that is to add chlorine. To be fair, I’ve also been told that my pool water is perfect and I don’t need to do anything.

Regarding your husband, I totally get why he could get annoyed. If my husband tried to take over something that was in my purview, I would probably say I’ve been doing this for 40 years and now you’re interested? But, some judicious introduction to this site might get him interested. Every marriage and every couple is different. I know how I would handle this with my husband but you know your husband.

if you want, feel free to go back and look at every post I’ve made. You’ll see me struggling at first and then getting it and then finally giving other people advice. You’ll also see funny things, sad things, and all sorts of just life type posts.

 

[IceShadow]

I get the “cultish” reputation too. Test your own water? Mess with adding chlorine daily? Only add chlorine daily and don’t shock the pool weekly? A process to clean up a green pool that can take weeks of babysitting, testing, and adding when my neighbor just dumped in magic potions from the pool store and it went clear?

The thing is:

- We test our own water using simple chemistry tests because we know the chemistry works. Pool stores and test strips have proven to be inaccurate more often than not.

- Pucks add CYA. So liquid chlorine which only adds FC and salt, is the way to go. And since you have to maintain FC up where it needs to be, you have to add daily (or maybe every two days).

- If you keep your FC where it needs to be, raising the FC up super-high isn’t necessary. Most pools fall well below where they should be for FC and then raise their FC to crazy high levels to kill the algae that is growing due to FC being too low. This can damage pool equipment and surfaces over time. And if you keep your FC where it needs to be, algae can never take hold.

- The SLAM Process works. It’s proven empirically and the science behind it is sound. And it works in pretty much every pool and application. The pool store potions might work but might be pointless with whatever situation you have going on - it’s an expensive gamble. They might even make things worse.

 

[IceShadow]

As far as pH and TA: pH is a current check of how acidic/basic your pool is. It’s the current status of the pool. TA is a buffer of chemical in the pool that stops it from going acidic too quickly. If it’s high, it will cause pH to rise quicker over time.

 

[jeffchap]

Repeat after me...

TFP is not a cult.

TFP is not a cult.

TFP is not a cult.

 

[IceShadow]

Repeat after me...

TFP is not a cult.

TFP is not a cult.

TFP is not a cult.

GIF Movie

I mean that just makes it seem more like one >.>

 

[YippeeSkippy]

I'll add my two cents- Regarding the test kits: years ago a mom & pop couple who posted on TFP saw a chance to start a business by putting together a kit that is actually geared to how we test our pool water. More of some reagents used often, less or the less common test reagents. They named their company tftestkits.net and many, many of us liked those kits. Their profits go to them, not the website.

The website is a non-profit tax deductible website that provides free information. Donations that are given freely are used to manage the computer system or whatever makes a website work. It requires program updates and maintenance at times. Donations help keep this site advertisement free.

The two entities are separate.

Maddie

 

[Lake Placid]

TFP a cult?

Car ownership is a cult…on my dashboard alone there are 17 different gauges that allow me to track the operation of my vehicle. This doesn’t count the other systems/sensors I can access with my diagnostic computer to monitor and correct all the other systems in use in the vehicle.

TFP uses 6 basic factors derived via tests as a ”dashboard” to operate a pool. Doesn’t sound cultish to me but simply like good responsible ownership practice.

On the other hand going to a pool store sounds like a cult to me. You show up and talk to some leader who is in charge and blindly follow their advice without any knowledge or independent thought on your own. Why? Because the leader is the “expert” and told you that is the thing to do. Sounds freakishly like this Jim Jones cool aid thing I once read about.

Can‘t wait to see OP turn this pool around.

 

[arvil]

Don’t know if it’s cultish or not,I think not. But, it works. I started out in 2003 just like most of us here, store said just dump the conditioner in the skimmer and use pucks, shock fornightly. When the algae grew in SLAM level chlorine because CYA was 150, found this forum, and relearned how the chemistry works, just chlorine, MA, and occasionally borax when pH is way low in the spring.

 

[Deb04]

Let's be nice to OP. She didn't say it was a cult, she said some other people in reviews said it was. And I said I thought it sometimes I worried it could seem a little cultish to new comers.

So, we all agree, we're not a cult. Let's all stand in a circle, hold hands, and write a song about how we're not a cult. Then we can get OP's pool clean.

 

[SpongyMothKilledOurPool]

One of us! One of us! Gooble gobble...

OK I've by no means finished reading, but I have another question I'm so far not finding the answer to.

Regarding liquid, vs powder chlorinator

Since I'm waiting on the test kit I can't look at our actual water content, BUT, it looks like the shock we're using currently is Cal Hypo:




From what I've read here so far, the main downside to this type of powdered chlorinator vs liquid chlorine/bleach is that it can raise Calcium Hardness, or cause cloudiness if TA is high?
Husband says that our water sometimes needs calcium added, though, since we're on city water not well water. In short, he's not concerned about increasing CH levels. And clearly, our water cloudiness at this time is due to a crazy amount of organic contaminants (frass)... maybe at some point clouding from the Shock might be a minor concern, but we have much bigger fish to fry right now.

Anyways, if the chlorinator we're using right now is not tablets with stabilizers, but just plain old calcium hypochlorite, then what would be the advantage of switching to liquid chlorine/bleach? With the lower concentration of liquid, I'm wondering if it really would be cost effective at all. I've seen claims (other places besides here) that liquid is more economical, but I'm not sure I see that bearing out.

hasty/fudged price comparisons
I think liquid often costs upwards of $6 a gallon, compared to IIRC $40 for this 5.5 lb bucket of Cal Hypo shock powder. He's putting about 8-10 oz in each time he chlorinates, so that comes to about 10 treatments of this 52% stuff. I haven't figured the math on how much liquid bleach is equivalent (too many possible price points vs bottle size vs concentrations to consider) but if it's in the ballpark of a gallon of liquid, to that ~8oz scoop of shock powder--then it seems like the shock powder is likely to win on economics, no?
Husband is hitting the pool store today though, and will be finding out if they sell liquid bleach/chlorine there & at what price point. Maybe the prices I'm seeing online from local hardware & grocery stores aren't representative of the best price you can actually find, if you know where to look. And obviously, it would be easier to start doing actual math on all this stuff if we had our home test kit up and running, to tell us for sure what is needed.

But aside from the cost, the bigger concern for me is: I had no idea till today that liquid chlorine or bleach degrades quickly, even just sitting in a never-opened bottle! That's wild! It seems like that would be a major inconvenience--you can't stock up on it too far ahead of time, you have to store it in a cool place, you have to make sure you buy the freshest bottles you can, and even then you could come home lugging gallons & (heavy) gallons of the stuff, only to find that it's a dud, if it was stored improperly at some point during transport & vending?

Sigh... I use it so infrequently for laundry (easier to just never wear white... yes, I'm lazy. Or rather, I have higher priorities than fussing with complicated laundry?) I probably have a gallon of inert expired stuff sitting in the basement. It's probably been there for a year or three! And I mostly use more hippie-dippie cleaning supplies for the house, but on the rare occasion I really want to sterilize the Crud out of something... I'm glad I know now that the dusty old bottle might need to be replaced first!

TL;DR: I get why the hating on pucks/tablets, with the lack of control they give you on chlorine vs stabilizer. But what does liquid chlorine have over plain old powdered Cal Hypo, if accumulation of calcium is not a concern for our water?