Optimize Your In-Floor Cleaning Effectiveness and Efficiency

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

But didn't you claim a 50% decrease in energy use (in red too)? I still don't think you are comparing apples to apples. The three scenarios do not have the same flow rate to the in-floors. As you redirect flow to the wall ports, the RPM must go up to compensate and deliver the same flow rate to the in-floors. As I stated before, the in-floor manifold must maintain the same pressure in order to maintain the same flow rate.

Mark, I claimed 50% increase in "Power Efficiency" (whatever that term means haha) as a comparison of my "original configuration" performance (2749 Gallons/kWh filtered) to my "final configuration" performance (4251 Gallons/kWh filtered).

As I said in my last response to dodger, I concede that both "flow rate from the manifold" AND "pressure in the manifold" must be decreased (partly because both of you seem knowledgeable and adamant about that and I can't test it). But I am maintaining that the flow rate from the manifold has not been significantly impacted by slightly opening the pool wall returns (2-notch Jandy stop adjustment). [although the PSI dropped significantly, the flow rate (gpm) did not change as much. How much it actually impacted "cleaning" is unclear as I was overdriving the popups in both of these cases]

BTW, I also now concede that there must be some portion (I believe small) of the flow of water to the manifold in my "original configuration" is being "redirected or diverted" to the wall returns in my "final configuration" (this naturally follows from prior paragraph)...something I discussed with dodger earlier.

 

[Dodger]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Jon, ultimately if the new cleaning configuration works for your pool, then it's a win, right? You and Rob describe a water situation that I don't have to face, so if "swirling" or having a floor/wall return mix works for the monsoon, have at it.

It seems to me the key to your configuration is that you are trying to address 2 (or 3) things, and not just a floor clean.

1. Floor
2. Middle volume of water (monsoon junk)
3. Surface skim (Rob's swirl)

That's more than a floor system was designed for, and what I think some of us are trying to say is that the floor system won't do its originally intended job 100% with your configuration.

I keep trying to come up with an analogy and the best I can do is an all-in-one printer/scanner/fax. The Floor Systems are designed to do one thing, which is to sweep the floor to the drain. By not giving them full pressure, they can't do their best with the floor, but hey, you can also scan and fax with it! (I know, who faxes anymore? But I needed it for my analogy.)

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Christmas came early this year...I walked out this morning and found a thin layer of...........


.......dirt all over my pool floor. A mini-monsoon! I will get to test out my new system and, (unfortunately) subjectively describe the results.

EDIT: I was premature and embellished the description a bit too much...when I went to bed last night it felt like a monsoon coming and I got up this morning, turned on my pool light and saw all sorts of suspended particles in the light. I promptly turned off my low speed recirculation and waited for the dirt to actually settle on my pool floor...no luck. It looks like it was a mini,mini,mini monsoon. No test today, sorry.

Before I go further, I want to thank everyone who has engaged with me on this issue. I really do appreciate the input and constructive criticism, it takes a LOT of effort to interact on these types of boards sometimes. I am a relatively newbie to most things beyond pool basics and so I don't know industry terms and I am not familiar with pool capabilities/equipment/etc other than my own.

Mark, I didn't go back to some of your previous comments but I think most of them were related to efficiency and I think I threw you off with my unintended use of the word in my reply to you.

Just to be clear, I run my pool cleaning system to clean the pool, and hopefully quickly (unfortunately I also run it for 3 hours most days because I am simply too lazy to switch the set schedule, even when its not needed). When cleaning, energy efficiency is a valid but secondary concern to me. But I really like BOTH!

 

[mitchellb]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Interested in hearing your real world observations with your changes. I still think we've all been making some major assumptions regarding flow and fluid dynamics. In the end, this is all likely very pool specific. I don't have any wall outlets to play with. I'm going to keep all of my flow going to my floor heads.

 

[Arizonarob]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

I think the thing we are overlooking is....
Somewhere in one of Jon’s posts, he mentioned the fact that his pump is pushing more water then the IFC system can handle. If that IS the case, then surely it’s quite possible to run both the floor and wall returns at the same time?
Now with that being said. I don’t have an IFC system, so I don’t know what the proper psi needs to be. So let’s just say the system needs 15psi to run the pop ups, well if the pump is putting out 20-25psi, I would think that you could easily divert the additional 5-10 psi to the wall returns?

Jon, is there anyway you can install a pressure gauge inline just before the “bubble” for the IFC system??

 

[mitchellb]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

My caretaker system does have a pressure valve in the multiport manifold.

This from the manual:

The operating pressure will vary depending on various factors suchas the pump size, number of cleaning heads on a line, and what otherauxiliary pool equipment is installed. In general, the normal operatingpressure is between 14-20 PSI

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Jon, ultimately if the new cleaning configuration works for your pool, then it's a win, right? You and Rob describe a water situation that I don't have to face, so if "swirling" or having a floor/wall return mix works for the monsoon, have at it.

I agree that our situation may be somewhat unique, but I think it’s a situation that is probably common through the southwest and possibly the Midwest (and even parts of California, especially in a drought). There are times when we quickly collect a LOT of light dirt/dust/particles in our pools.

And…IF it works for me (and you know that I am confident it will), I suspect it will work for other people as well which is why I am sharing it here on the boards. I am also hoping that some other tinkerers (like myself), especially someone with a flowvis and a pressure meter (haha) will run some of their own experiments. Mitchellb is right, my particular settings will definitely be pool specific…however, the concept is more general and may be implementable by other people. Unfortunately this seems not to be the case for many pools that don’t have other returns besides the cleaning system itself (both Mark and Michellb have pointed that out).

There are far too many testimonials of people on these boards who have abandoned their in-floor cleaning systems entirely…and although many may be attributable to those pool owners' (lack of) adherence to good practices, I suspect that many systems are poorly designed and are simply not “effective”.

It seems to me the key to your configuration is that you are trying to address 2 (or 3) things, and not just a floor clean.

1. Floor
2. Middle volume of water (monsoon junk)
3. Surface skim (Rob's swirl)

I’m new to #3 so I am not going to comment on that, I am going to summarize #1 & #2 by saying that I’m particularly addressing small material (at the top, middle, bottom, and floor of the pool) that drifts down to the floor: I’m going to call this: “temporarily suspended material” and it is mostly dirt. Sand, pebbles, seeds, and some other “stuff” stays mostly on the bottom and is pushed around the floor by the cleaning system until (if ever) they go down the main drain OR collect in a dead area.

That's more than a floor system was designed for, and what I think some of us are trying to say is that the floor system won't do its originally intended job 100% with your configuration.

Here’s where I am going to disagree. I know you didn’t mean it this way, but I don’t believe any of these companies call their products floor cleaning systems…they call them pool cleaning systems that are in-floor. And, in my last post to you, I detailed a proposed configuration (95% or even 100% pump max speed) in which my pop-up performance will outperform my “original configuration” [not true] AND filter even more “temporarily suspended material” when running. You may not agree that this will happen in my system(yet, haha) but that is a different argument. I don’t’ believe my new configuration is a different usage model from that originally intended.

We have the grandkids today so my replies may be somewhat sporadic.

 

[mas985]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Without a manifold pressure gauge you can use the filter pressure gauge as a proxy. It is in't as exact because of the head loss between the filter and the manifold but it is much better then a guess although it still disadvantages the 100% case. For each of the three cases, you simply set the RPM such that the filter pressure is about the same for all three cases. This will ensure that the manifold pressure is close to being the same and thus the actual flow rate in the manifold is about the same. Under these operating conditions, I think you will find that the 100% case actually has the highest Energy Factor although it may not be by much.

You can certainly run the skimming at the same time as the in-floors but again, if energy efficiency is important, you may find separating the tasks into two separate run times (each at much lower RPM than the combined) results in lower energy use. Especially once you ensure the in-floors are getting the same pressure/flow rate in both cases.

But filtering the suspended particles takes a lot of run time because you have to filter that large volume of water just once to collect the debris. When debris is on the surface or floor, it is far more efficient to clean it up in those locations. That is why most pools will benefit with idle time to allow the debris to settle to the bottom. Of course as long as the in-floor can clean it up.

Lastly, skimming really shouldn't take much in the way of flow rate. I set my VS to run at about 30 GPM with two skimmers (15 GPM per skimmer) and the weir door is still pulled down and skimming is still pretty effective.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

I think the thing we are overlooking is....
Somewhere in one of Jon’s posts, he mentioned the fact that his pump is pushing more water then the IFC system can handle. If that IS the case, then surely it’s quite possible to run both the floor and wall returns at the same time?
Now with that being said. I don’t have an IFC system, so I don’t know what the proper psi needs to be. So let’s just say the system needs 15psi to run the pop ups, well if the pump is putting out 20-25psi, I would think that you could easily divert the additional 5-10 psi to the wall returns?

Jon, is there anyway you can install a pressure gauge inline just before the “bubble” for the IFC system??

Rob, this is what I was attempting to address in one of my previous comments to Dodger: "I suspect that it [manifold operation] is on a point on the curve where higher pressure has flattened manifold output..." but you said it better and simpler here.

Unfortunately I don't have a psi meter anywhere except at the filter...which is NOT that far from the manifold BUT in between is that 3-way Jandy valve that I am tweaking. That is the spot where we all know the PSI is going to go further down.

But, here is a repost of those 3 critical configuration examples that we previously looked, now including PSI at the filter. Remember in all 3 of these configurations, the pump RPM=2670 (80% of max).

				Watts	GPM	Gallons/KWh	Filter PSI
100% Cleaning (Original Configuration)				873	40	2749	22
Jandy 1 Notch (Test 1, approx 85% cleaning, 15% wall)			903	49	3256	21
Jandy 2 Notch (Final Configuration, approx 50% cleaning, 50% wall)		1115	79	4251	17.5

Pressure is very high in the filter...how much does it drop at the partially open 3-way Jandy Valve? [Answer: significantly]

I may have to insert a pressure gauge in my line somewhere before the manifold to help resolve this question. [yes, stop talking about it and just do it...but give me a little break here, remember that all these posts happened over just a few days, I DO put in a pressure gauge near the manifold as will be seen]

- - - Updated - - -

Interested in hearing your real world observations with your changes. I still think we've all been making some major assumptions regarding flow and fluid dynamics. In the end, this is all likely very pool specific. I don't have any wall outlets to play with. I'm going to keep all of my flow going to my floor heads.

mitchell, too bad...you have the gpm meter and the PSI meter, I would have definitely tried to recruit you to try this experiment. So...do you have no returns to the pool except through the cleaning system? Being a newbie, I didn't know they did that on systems.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Without a manifold pressure gauge you can use the filter pressure gauge as a proxy. It is in't as exact because of the head loss between the filter and the manifold but it is much better then a guess although it still disadvantages the 100% case. For each of the three cases, you simply set the RPM such that the filter pressure is about the same for all three cases. This will ensure that the manifold pressure is close to being the same and thus the actual flow rate in the manifold is about the same. Under these operating conditions, I think you will find that the 100% case actually has the highest Energy Factor although it may not be by much.

You can certainly run the skimming at the same time as the in-floors but again, if energy efficiency is important, you may find separating the tasks into two separate run times (each at much lower RPM than the combined) results in lower energy use. Especially once you ensure the in-floors are getting the same pressure/flow rate in both cases.

But filtering the suspended particles takes a lot of run time because you have to filter that large volume of water just once to collect the debris. When debris is on the surface or floor, it is far more efficient to clean it up in those locations. That is why most pools will benefit with idle time to allow the debris to settle to the bottom. Of course as long as the in-floor can clean it up.

Lastly, skimming really shouldn't take much in the way of flow rate. I set my VS to run at about 30 GPM with two skimmers (15 GPM per skimmer) and the weir door is still pulled down and skimming is still pretty effective.

Mark, we must have posted "over one another" because I missed this reply until I just glanced back at the thread. In that reply to Rob I did talk about the filter pressure gauge and the problem associated with using it, as you pointed out also. I might end up installing a new pressure gauge in one of the fittings close to the manifold.

The one thing you mention that is different from my experience is with regards to the filtering of the "temporarily suspended particles". Yes they are easiest to get when they are on the pool floor...but only with a vacuum. If the cleaning system kicks on...they are suspended again almost instantly.

These days, because I am retired and have more time, after a BIG monsoon storm, I...

1) let the dirt settle
2) turn-off the cleaning system returns and turn on the wall returns (otherwise the vacuum is useless)
3) vacuum

I've done this three times this year. With my new "final configuration": I am anxious to try avoiding the vacuuming and use only the pool cleaning system which should now be much more "effective" in filtering out this material in a timely manner.

This discussion with everyone on the boards has me thinking that I am going to first try it out at a 100% pump speed and then back it off from there. I am really disappointed there wasn't a real monsoon last night.

 

[gvc]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

I had new intelliflo vs pump installed a few months ago and decided to run my own tests as I was unsure of how I was going to program it with my particular plumbing configuration vs my old 3HP single speed pump. attached is the worksheet I used to test all the variables with different valve positions. I have two main drains with two skimmers (md/skim) and caretaker 8 port infloor cleaning system tied into to a venturi "leaf catcher" return. one valve controls my input between the main drains and skimmers and one valve controls return water to pop-ups/leaf catcher return (one big wall return that creates bottom floor suction from one bottom opening for large debris suction). I just wrote down the watt/gpm data from the pump display as I reconfigured the valve settings to vary the input/output. as expected , i get maximum water flow with all both valves in the middle position to allow suction from all inputs and return to all outputs(the least amount of flow restriction). here is the worksheet I created: LC stands for leaf catcher return, MD stands for main drain, sk=skimmer.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Gvc…thx for posting. I stared at this for some time before realizing there might be some very useful data that we could analyze and apply to this thread.

The key to applying this data to this situation is the answer to this question: For any given RPM level, do your popups still work (have enough pressure as dodger might ask) when BOTH the popups and leaf catcher are enabled as returns? I suspect the answer might be no because when you put your return valve in the middle, it probably sends so much volume to the leaf catcher (I couldn’t find any specs on this) that the popups don’t work.

If the answer is yes...then we are in business.

By the way…I think you are missing what I consider to be an important column: Input-Main Drain, Output-Popups

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Without a manifold pressure gauge you can use the filter pressure gauge as a proxy. It is in't as exact because of the head loss between the filter and the manifold but it is much better then a guess although it still disadvantages the 100% case. For each of the three cases, you simply set the RPM such that the filter pressure is about the same for all three cases. This will ensure that the manifold pressure is close to being the same and thus the actual flow rate in the manifold is about the same. Under these operating conditions, I think you will find that the 100% case actually has the highest Energy Factor although it may not be by much.

mark, I am going to install a pressure gauge near my manifold (like Rob suggested) today probably so I don’t have to estimate. I don’t know if my 100% case will end up being the most energy efficient but I think it will be the most “cleaning effective”, sorry about making up more terms, haha. But I am anxious to find out and will post the results when I have them.

When I get this pressure gauge “in”, I will adjust the pump RPM in all three case to have the same pressure at the manifold and then measure the results. That’s the experiment, correct?

 

[mas985]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Yes, the pressure at the manifold needs to be the same in order for the flow rate to be the same to the heads.

But since you said the 50/50 case works ok for the in-floors, you could use that as a baseline and set the 100% case to a lower RPM. The higher the manifold pressure, the higher the flow rate and the faster the cleaner heads should spin. So theoretically, it would clean faster at a higher pressure but it will cost more to run. So usually, you are better off energy wise, to clean slower and longer than faster and shorter. Not much different than just filtering.

 

[Arizonarob]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

::

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Yes, the pressure at the manifold needs to be the same in order for the flow rate to be the same to the heads.

But since you said the 50/50 case works ok for the in-floors, you could use that as a baseline and set the 100% case to a lower RPM. The higher the manifold pressure, the higher the flow rate and the faster the cleaner heads should spin. So theoretically, it would clean faster at a higher pressure but it will cost more to run. So usually, you are better off energy wise, to clean slower and longer than faster and shorter. Not much different than just filtering.

well, most of us love data, so...Im sure I will end up running ALL the cleaning tables again to record the manifold pressure for all .

 

[gvc]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Gvc…thx for posting. I stared at this for some time before realizing there might be some very useful data that we could analyze and apply to this thread.

The key to applying this data to this situation is the answer to this question: For any given RPM level, do your popups still work (have enough pressure as dodger might ask) when BOTH the popups and leaf catcher are enabled as returns? I suspect the answer might be no because when you put your return valve in the middle, it probably sends so much volume to the leaf catcher (I couldn’t find any specs on this) that the popups don’t work.

If the answer is yes...then we are in business.

By the way…I think you are missing what I consider to be an important column: Input-Main Drain, Output-Popups

I didn't add the MD/popup column because the numbers were fairly identical to skimmer/popup and I really didn't think I'd actually use that particular combination anyway.

But , as you surmise, the lower the rpm, the lower the popup pressure as it relates to effective cleaning. on calm days with the pool fairly clean , I'm only concerned with effective filtration and not that concerned with the water flow out of the popups. I only use the leafcatcher return with the popups (with higher rpm) to move larger debris on pool surface to the deep end to either get the leafcatcher drain to suck it or at least move it to a corner for easy scoop up. will probably be doing that more this fall/winter when the tree vegetation starts to turn and the nw cold fronts start coming in. But with fine particulate on surface/floor, I primarily use mid range rpm with popup only return and adjust the suction valve accordingly for effective skimming. I'm not convinced the main drains can be that effective at sucking in floor dust/dirt as the popups tend to stir that stuff up for the skimmer suction to eventually pull that through to the filter but as previously mentioned in this thread, that generally means longer pump run times to get the job done.

everything is still a work in progress since I've only had the VS pump for a few months and every weather season will have its own particulars as far as pool cleaning is concerned.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

I didn't add the MD/popup column because the numbers were fairly identical to skimmer/popup and I really didn't think I'd actually use that particular combination anyway.

But , as you surmise, the lower the rpm, the lower the popup pressure as it relates to effective cleaning. on calm days with the pool fairly clean , I'm only concerned with effective filtration and not that concerned with the water flow out of the popups. I only use the leafcatcher return with the popups (with higher rpm) to move larger debris on pool surface to the deep end to either get the leafcatcher drain to suck it or at least move it to a corner for easy scoop up. will probably be doing that more this fall/winter when the tree vegetation starts to turn and the nw cold fronts start coming in. But with fine particulate on surface/floor, I primarily use mid range rpm with popup only return and adjust the suction valve accordingly for effective skimming. I'm not convinced the main drains can be that effective at sucking in floor dust/dirt as the popups tend to stir that stuff up for the skimmer suction to eventually pull that through to the filter but as previously mentioned in this thread, that generally means longer pump run times to get the job done.

everything is still a work in progress since I've only had the VS pump for a few months and every weather season will have its own particulars as far as pool cleaning is concerned.

The only reason I think that drain/pop ups case is important is for comparison purposes. On my system the best setting for infloor cleanings (temporarily suspended material) has always been full draw from the main drain. I suspect that this is true for almost all in-floor cleaning systems.

If you have managed to figure out what my ramblings on this thread are about (I tend to get a little wordy), here is what I believe (it’s a theory) is the method for you to increase flow through your cleaning system while still trying to keep that as efficient as possible (this is an alternative to simply upping RPM at the pump to run more water through your system to clean it faster, which is energy inefficient. way to determine the best effective cleaning settings for your system (and more energy efficient than what you are currently running while cleaning

1) determine the psi (target psi) at your popup manifold which you are comfortable that your popups are effectively “sweeping” your floor...this will be subjective [if his system is newer, the manifold may have PSI specifications, those should probably be used instead of this method]...start out higher and later you can backoff if you are satisfied. dodger and mark have made me realize the importance of this, one of the reasons I am installing a pressure gauge at my manifold later today.

2).
A)Now the goal is to maximize the flow rate (gpm) through your system while maintaining that same psi at the manifold. Start with full return to your pop ups. Record gpm, wattage, manifold psi (should be the same as target psi)

B) tweak the valve for pool returns slightly over towards the leaf catcher...one click (they probably don’t click do they?). Increase the pump rpm to hit your target psi at the popup manifold. Record everything again. You will see the gpm go up here from step (A).

C) repeat this tweaking until your pump maxes out trying to hit the target manifold psi seeg pm hit a maximum and then start to go down. It shouldn’t take long (maybe only two to three “clicks”) because your pump maxing out trying to hit your target psi with both return paths (partially) open

3) move the valve back to the “gpm max” position. According to this theory, this is the setting that will clean your pool most “effectively” with more volume and "should" (depending on your system characteristics) be close to the optimum energy efficiency level possible for your in-floor cleaning system. This tweaking will allow you to clean debris faster ...possibly at all given pump rpms for which your popups “work” . And the lowest rpm at which you can run this should be the most energy efficient spot to run your in-floor cleaning system This pump rpm is only for popup operation...it is not the same speed as the low speed skimming/circulating done at other times.

That’s the theory [and with the additional caveats and qualifications]...hope you try it and report back. I’m free now so I’m off to lowes to buy my pressure gauge.

 

[mas985]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

2).
A)Now the goal is to maximize the flow rate (gpm) through your system while maintaining that same psi at the manifold. Start with full return to your pop ups. Record gpm, wattage, manifold psi (should be the same as target psi)

Why is that a goal? The Max GPM part. We know that filtering works better at lower flow rates and energy efficiency is better at lower flow rates. For everything in a pool system including the in-floors, you want to minimize the flow rates for efficiency reasons but keep everything operating effectively. Maximum flow rates is rarely optimum for anything.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Why is that a goal? The Max GPM part. We know that filtering works better at lower flow rates and energy efficiency is better at lower flow rates. For everything in a pool system including the in-floors, you want to minimize the flow rates for efficiency reasons but keep everything operating effectively. Maximum flow rates is rarely optimum for anything.

OK, Mark...I'm going to roil some feathers and post what I have really been thinking these last few days...look at the "WHY IT WORKS" section...