Not generating Chlorine due to high phosphates
- Thread starter JoeGolan
- Start date
I am a nurse working at a medical school teaching facility. At no time in the past 20 years have I *ever* heard of a dermatologist mentioning "phosphates" when researching a rash.
Now hot-tub rash is a common enough thing- Pseudomonas sure can grow in warm water. The rash tends to be worst in the areas that the swimsuit covered and it enters in the hair follicles. May or may not require antibiotics to clear.
The tub is contaminated and needs to undergo a decontamination process. Ahh-some will help clear the biofilm from the plumbing, and then bringing the new water up to SLAM levels will kill off any remaining cooties.
Maddie
Now hot-tub rash is a common enough thing- Pseudomonas sure can grow in warm water. The rash tends to be worst in the areas that the swimsuit covered and it enters in the hair follicles. May or may not require antibiotics to clear.
The tub is contaminated and needs to undergo a decontamination process. Ahh-some will help clear the biofilm from the plumbing, and then bringing the new water up to SLAM levels will kill off any remaining cooties.
Maddie
I am a nurse working at a medical school teaching facility. At no time in the past 20 years have I *ever* heard of a dermatologist mentioning "phosphates" when researching a rash.
Now hot-tub rash is a common enough thing- Pseudomonas sure can grow in warm water. The rash tends to be worst in the areas that the swimsuit covered and it enters in the hair follicles. May or may not require antibiotics to clear.
The tub is contaminated and needs to undergo a decontamination process. Ahh-some will help clear the biofilm from the plumbing, and then bringing the new water up to SLAM levels will kill off any remaining cooties.
Maddie
Thanks Maddie,
My wife is recovering without antibiotics, the dermatologist prescribed some steroids for her and to apply Benadryl cream to the affected areas and it is clearing up.
We are not even sure if it is related to the hot tub or not. I am the one that put together the Dr asking about her gardening and me knowing the high phosphate levels in the spa. Sorry if I did not make that clear in the OP.
Oh and btw she never wears a suit in the spa
That was my next plan if things did not start to improve.... another 48 hours should tell the story
like I said in the OP
The filter runs for 6 hours a day and we have not changed that since it was first installed. We don't let it sit and I check chlorine levels 2-3 times a week and especially just before we would go in.
I clean the filter cartridge 2-3 times a year and use a cleaner letting it soak in a large container for 10-12 hours with the cleaner. I have 2 cartridges so there is always a fresh one ready to be installed. The back pressure on the filter never gets more than 1-2 lbs higher before cleaning.
I will look into the Ahh-some, maybe I should make that part of my regular routine.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,716
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
How old is the water?
Any spa or hot tub should be drained regularly. The water volume is simply too small and the temperatures are simply too high to maintain the same water volume for more than 4 months or so. Once biofilms establish themselves they will proliferate as it is completely impossible for chlorine alone to destroy them. Studies have shown that biofilms can withstand chlorine concentrations well in excess of 100ppm. So there is simply no reasonable amount of chlorine that can destroy biofilms.
Clean and purge your spa and I'm sure everything will return to normal.
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Any spa or hot tub should be drained regularly. The water volume is simply too small and the temperatures are simply too high to maintain the same water volume for more than 4 months or so. Once biofilms establish themselves they will proliferate as it is completely impossible for chlorine alone to destroy them. Studies have shown that biofilms can withstand chlorine concentrations well in excess of 100ppm. So there is simply no reasonable amount of chlorine that can destroy biofilms.
Clean and purge your spa and I'm sure everything will return to normal.
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I am going to say about a year..... I drained it last year to do some polishing work on the fiberglass and recaulking of the rim. Prior to that the water was there for 4 years since build.
Is there a separate test to detect biofilms?
I did find this article when search for Biofilms in spas
https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/swimming/resources/legionella-factsheet.pdf
and this one
Bio-Film in Spas Hot Tub Blog
and finally this one
BIOFILM, A HIDDEN THREAT
- May 23, 2015
- 25,716
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Nope.
Look down your sink drain with a flashlight or open up the p-trap under your sink and run your finger in the pipe...that's a biofilm
4 years is definitely too long for water in a spa. Your filter simply can't catch enough of the skin you shed, oils you excrete, etc, etc. All of that bather waste eventually settles on plumbing surfaces where bacteria can colonize them and form an constant biological reservoir. Those sources of biological contamination become a constant source of FC demand and eventual cause the problems you are seeing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nope.
Look down your sink drain with a flashlight or open up the p-trap under your sink and run your finger in the pipe...that's a biofilm
4 years is definitely too long for water in a spa. Your filter simply can't catch enough of the skin you shed, oils you excrete, etc, etc. All of that bather waste eventually settles on plumbing surfaces where bacteria can colonize them and form an constant biological reservoir. Those sources of biological contamination become a constant source of FC demand and eventual cause the problems you are seeing.
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hmmm..... something to think about
So what now....
Ahh-some???
Drain SPA???
Throw away filter cartridges???
Rotor-root the pipes???
Follow-up
Still waiting on delivery of ahh-some but I have many reservations about using this product....seems very toxic and since my overflow drains to a fish-stocked retention pond I am going to have to find another way to get rid of discharge if I decide to use it.
After 4 rounds with the phosphate remover, my phosphate count is now finally down to <100. Chlorine count is back up and SWG is set currently to 10% and I may have to lower it again (was normally 6-8% during summer months)
TC=5
FC=5
ph=7.8
CYA=80
salt=3300
CH=325
Alkalinity=100
I am not unhappy with these numbers and may just put the ahh-some on the shelf, if it is that toxic to fish I may not want to be in any residue of it either
Still waiting on delivery of ahh-some but I have many reservations about using this product....seems very toxic and since my overflow drains to a fish-stocked retention pond I am going to have to find another way to get rid of discharge if I decide to use it.
After 4 rounds with the phosphate remover, my phosphate count is now finally down to <100. Chlorine count is back up and SWG is set currently to 10% and I may have to lower it again (was normally 6-8% during summer months)
TC=5
FC=5
ph=7.8
CYA=80
salt=3300
CH=325
Alkalinity=100
I am not unhappy with these numbers and may just put the ahh-some on the shelf, if it is that toxic to fish I may not want to be in any residue of it either
I dropped the SWG to 8% and all is still good.
Now I would like to get back to the Ahh-some product recommended here. I did purchase the 2 OZ size to try but after reading the literature and considering the toxic nature of it it will sit on the shelf for now.
My big problem is the discharge of water after the treatment. I live in a gated community and have a 5-acre retention pond behind my home. The pond is stocked with various species of fish. The property is graded toward the pond so it is virtually impossible for me to avoid having the discharge get there. As I am also the president of the HOA, it would be extremely embarrassing (and costly) if i was responsible for a fish-kill.
So what other product can I use for the plumbing that will be safe for the environment?
Now I would like to get back to the Ahh-some product recommended here. I did purchase the 2 OZ size to try but after reading the literature and considering the toxic nature of it it will sit on the shelf for now.
My big problem is the discharge of water after the treatment. I live in a gated community and have a 5-acre retention pond behind my home. The pond is stocked with various species of fish. The property is graded toward the pond so it is virtually impossible for me to avoid having the discharge get there. As I am also the president of the HOA, it would be extremely embarrassing (and costly) if i was responsible for a fish-kill.
So what other product can I use for the plumbing that will be safe for the environment?
Could you use a pump and discharge it into a storm drain (check local codes) or utility sink?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,716
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I sincerely doubt 750 gallons of used spa water will have much of any effect on a 5 acre retention pond. 5 acre-ft of water is over 1.6 million gallons; adding 750 gallons DIRECTLY to the pond would result in a 0.046% dilution. The Ahh-some product's main chemical is only 50% of the total addition and the application rate for your tub would be 3 teaspoons in 750 gallons. 3 tsps is 0.0039 gallons. So, to review -
(0.0039/750) * (750/1,600,000) *5000ppm = 1.21 x 10^-5 ppm
That's a couple of parts-per-trillion concentration. If the product were that toxic to fish that a couple of ppt could cause a fish-kill, then I doubt it would ever be allowed to be sold. If you discharge the 750 gallons onto your lawn (I assume there's some grass and earth between the tub and the pond), then the product will be completely absorbed into the soil and likely broken down before it ever makes it to the pond.
That is a perfectly acceptable solution. Ahh-some can be discharged into any sanitary waste drain without issue.
And all that math is assuming that the pond is only 1 ft deep which is unlikely. If it's 2 ft deep then cut all those numbers in half...
Storm drains are a no, no.... they feed back to the retention ponds and other waterways. I could send it back to the sewer system via cleanout fitting in my front yard, I am going to need 150-200' of 2" hose to do so. Spa does not have a floor drain, only side wall drains so even after draining there would be 8-9" inches of contaminated water left there to be diluted/redrained or sop it out
- - - Updated - - -
Pond is 10' deep at center
- - - Updated - - -
Maybe you should read the literature.... it say NOT to discharge in to waterways due to danger of a fish kill, that is enough for me.
Well, there's always plastic buckets carried to the nearest laundry tub or toilet. A hundred round trips is good exercise!
You are a riot
I do have a small (1/6hp) submersible pump that has a garden hose type fitting on it. Might take a little longer then the main pump but I have more than enough garden hose to make it to the sewer cleanout fitting, at least honey won't have a chance to complain about water or hoses through the house.
Sorry to interject but I have the Aqua Rite SWG in a pool, with a phosphate level of 2500, and Hayward tech told me exactly that.
