No Power (0 Volts) @ Timer and Pump

[Haulster]

I bought a home in Tuscon with a 8000 gallon in ground pool exactly 1 year ago. I've had issues since day one.

Timer = Intermatic 104 for 240V. Pump = Centurion 1081 3/4 HP 230/115 SF 1.65 HZ60 Amps SF 7.1/14.2 RPM 3450.
Distance Breaker Box to Timer = 45'
Distance Timer to Pump = 2'

Yesterday I decided to test everything, with a Klein multimeter, working my way from the breaker box to the pump.
- Breaker Box - Yesterday & today both 15 AMP breakers read 120V @ ON position. Consistent. Checked several times with a multimeter
- Intermatic Timer - Yesterday Legs 1, 2 ,3 & 4 read 80V but it was dead quiet, no movement at all by gears or clock. Last night and today all legs consistently read 0V
- Pump Wiring at rear door - Yesterday both wires read 80V. Last night and today both consistently read 0V
- Capacitor - Removed and checked it today with a multimeter. Nothing. Dead

History
Pump stopped working 3 months ago so I put in a new capacitor. Yes I went up in Volts from a PRC30A to Titan HD PRC40A MFD+-5% 370 VAC 60/50HZ Protected @ 10000. 2 months later the pump got really loud while running so I stopped turning it on. It was winter so it wasn't the end of the world. My pool man turned it on a month ago to vacuum the pool and that is when it stopped working.

Anyway, why is there zero power at the Timer and Pump? I took the Timer panel out and the gears look really crunched together and the ON/OFF switch is touching the gears. Like I said, yesterday when there was 80 V going into the timer I could not get any movement from the gears or clock. The manual ON/OFF switch moves freely left to right but does not power timer on.

Even with 80V of power going to the Timer and Pump nothing tuned on. No sound at all.

Any ideas?

 

[Jimrahbe]

H,

My initial idea is that you should find someone that has a background in electricity to help you troubleshoot your system.. Some of the things that you are saying are "almost" impossible to have happen..

That said, here are some other ideas..

1. If your system is wired for 240 volts and your pump is installed, you cannot test for 120 volts to gnd. The only way to test 240 volts is from L1 and L2. In other words.. To test the 240 volt breaker, you do not test one side to ground and get 120, and then test the other side to ground and get 120. This can often result in a error even if half the voltage is missing. You MUST test between the output of both breakers and ensure you have 240 volts AC.

2. Voltage does not just disappear. You can't go from 120 volts to 80 volts in most pool systems, so I suspect a measurement error.

I suggest that you go to the main pool pump breaker and test between L1 and L2 and ensure that you have 240 Volts AC.

Then go to your timer and measure the input to the timer. Only measure between L1 and L2 (Pin 1 and Pin 3 of the timer) Ensure you have 240 Volts AC.

Then test between the two timer output pins, (pins 2 and 4) and ensure that you have 240 volts AC.

Then go to your pump and measure between the two hot wires right where they connect to the pump. Again only measure between L1 and L2.

Please do that and report back your findings.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[1poolman1]

Nothing rated as a 120v or 240v appliance, motor, timer, etc. will work at 80v. At best a motor might start to run but would quickly overheat and either be shut off by a safety device or burn up due to an over-amp draw.

You say both legs of the breaker read 120v but do they read 240v when tested together (lead on each terminal). Or did you test each terminal to ground/neutral?

You can actually read the "same" voltage on both legs if only one is hot as the other terminal will be connected through the motor, even the time-clock motor, and give you a reading. Remember that even if a breaker handle appears to be in the "on" position, the internals may still be tripped and you are actually reading the other side. The best way to know is to remove the conductors from the breaker (with it off, of course). It really does sound like you have either lost one leg (burned wire?) or one side of your breaker hasn't been properly reset. I always use two fingers to turn a breaker off and on, one on each handle . That way I can feel the breaker lock into the proper position on both sides

 

[Haulster]

H,

My initial idea is that you should find someone that has a background in electricity to help you troubleshoot your system.. Some of the things that you are saying are "almost" impossible to have happen..

That said, here are some other ideas..

1. If your system is wired for 240 volts and your pump is installed, you cannot test for 120 volts to gnd. The only way to test 240 volts is from L1 and L2. In other words.. To test the 240 volt breaker, you do not test one side to ground and get 120, and then test the other side to ground and get 120. This can often result in a error even if half the voltage is missing. You MUST test between the output of both breakers and ensure you have 240 volts AC.

2. Voltage does not just disappear. You can't go from 120 volts to 80 volts in most pool systems, so I suspect a measurement error.

I suggest that you go to the main pool pump breaker and test between L1 and L2 and ensure that you have 240 Volts AC.

Then go to your timer and measure the input to the timer. Only measure between L1 and L2 (Pin 1 and Pin 3 of the timer) Ensure you have 240 Volts AC.

Then test between the two timer output pins, (pins 2 and 4) and ensure that you have 240 volts AC.

Then go to your pump and measure between the two hot wires right where they connect to the pump. Again only measure between L1 and L2.

Please do that and report back your findings.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Hi Jim,

My initial idea is that you should find someone that has a background in electricity to help you troubleshoot your system.. Some of the things that you are saying are "almost" impossible to have happen.. 2 reasons. #1, I'm a curious person and enjoy problem solving. #2, I can't afford it. If I had lots of money I would probably still end up using #1 as my excuse.

That said, here are some other ideas..

1. If your system is wired for 240 volts and your pump is installed, you cannot test for 120 volts to gnd. The only way to test 240 volts is from L1 and L2. In other words.. To test the 240 volt breaker, you do not test one side to ground and get 120, and then test the other side to ground and get 120. This can often result in a error even if half the voltage is missing. You MUST test between the output of both breakers and ensure you have 240 volts AC. I'm a little confused by testing one side to ground and getting 120 and testing the other side to ground. I had a friend over earlier who was an electrical apprentice for.a short time. He did some readings and concluded the two 15amp breakers in the breaker box are good. Each one reads 120. My breaker box is attached to the house and my pool timer and pump are about 40' across the yard. The wiring runs underground from my house to the timer. My pump is about 2' behind the timer.

2. Voltage does not just disappear. You can't go from 120 volts to 80 volts in most pool systems, so I suspect a measurement error. I had never read the voltage at the timer, pump or breaker box until a few days ago. I guess I should assume the timer and pump read 120V while the pump was working?

I suggest that you go to the main pool pump breaker and test between L1 and L2 and ensure that you have 240 Volts AC. Confirmed. Each 15AMP breaker reads 120V.

Then go to your timer and measure the input to the timer. Only measure between L1 and L2 (Pin 1 and Pin 3 of the timer) Ensure you have 240 Volts AC. 2 or 3 days ago L1 and L2 read 80V each. Same with L3 and L4 and the two wires at the back of the motor. Yesterday and today all read 0V (Zero Volts).

Then test between the two timer output pins, (pins 2 and 4) and ensure that you have 240 volts AC.

Then go to your pump and measure between the two hot wires right where they connect to the pump. Again only measure between L1 and L2.

Please do that and report back your findings. So, again today all points (except the breaker box) read 0. I also took the run capacitor off the motor and tested it. I got no reading on that. Zero. While my friend was here we thought we would try something. We turned off the power at the breaker box then we removed the timer panel and motor leaving the wires coming from breaker box (at the house) exposed. We turned the breaker box power back on and tested those exposed wires. Nothing. Zero. Tuned main power back OFF and cut one of the 2 wires (from the breaker box to the timer) down about 4 inches, exposing cleaner wire. Turned power back ON and took a reading. The one we just cut down read 20V. The 2nd wire read 0V again. So I got a 20 Volt reading at Timer. This is essentially the closest point to test the wires, from the breaker box, after it runs down the wall and then underground for 40' and then up 2' through the pipe that holds the Timer box. That is where I left is last night.

Thanks,

Jim R.

H,

My initial idea is that you should find someone that has a background in electricity to help you troubleshoot your system.. Some of the things that you are saying are "almost" impossible to have happen..

That said, here are some other ideas..

1. If your system is wired for 240 volts and your pump is installed, you cannot test for 120 volts to gnd. The only way to test 240 volts is from L1 and L2. In other words.. To test the 240 volt breaker, you do not test one side to ground and get 120, and then test the other side to ground and get 120. This can often result in a error even if half the voltage is missing. You MUST test between the output of both breakers and ensure you have 240 volts AC.

2. Voltage does not just disappear. You can't go from 120 volts to 80 volts in most pool systems, so I suspect a measurement error.

I suggest that you go to the main pool pump breaker and test between L1 and L2 and ensure that you have 240 Volts AC.

Then go to your timer and measure the input to the timer. Only measure between L1 and L2 (Pin 1 and Pin 3 of the timer) Ensure you have 240 Volts AC.

Then test between the two timer output pins, (pins 2 and 4) and ensure that you have 240 volts AC.

Then go to your pump and measure between the two hot wires right where they connect to the pump. Again only measure between L1 and L2.

Please do that and report back your findings.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Haulster]

Nothing rated as a 120v or 240v appliance, motor, timer, etc. will work at 80v. At best a motor might start to run but would quickly overheat and either be shut off by a safety device or burn up due to an over-amp draw.

You say both legs of the breaker read 120v but do they read 240v when tested together (lead on each terminal). Or did you test each terminal to ground/neutral?

You can actually read the "same" voltage on both legs if only one is hot as the other terminal will be connected through the motor, even the time-clock motor, and give you a reading. Remember that even if a breaker handle appears to be in the "on" position, the internals may still be tripped and you are actually reading the other side. The best way to know is to remove the conductors from the breaker (with it off, of course). It really does sound like you have either lost one leg (burned wire?) or one side of your breaker hasn't been properly reset. I always use two fingers to turn a breaker off and on, one on each handle . That way I can feel the breaker lock into the proper position on both sides

I did test both breakers together and it reads 245 V. I never tested the Voltage at the Timer or Motor before they both stopped working. It did read 80 V a few days ago and read 0 until last night. I explain in my reply above but I took off the Timer motor plate leaving the wires from the breaker box exposed. Took a reading directly at the exposed wires and got 0. Then cut one of the wires down 4" and got a reading of 20. That is were I left off last night.

I haven't tried your advice to remove the conductors. I can't scroll down past "That way you can feel the breaker lock into the proper position on both sides". What do I do after I remove the conductors?

 

[1poolman1]

Jimrabhe has given you the best, most concise, advice so far as to how to troubleshoot your issue. If you can't find the issue using his instructions its time to call a pro who can find where you have lost power. Testing neither the capacitor nor the GFCI will tell you anything. The GFCI is not in the pump circuit and the capacitor is only energized when the pump has power. You're chasing your tail.

 

[1poolman1]

I did test both breakers together and it reads 245 V. I never tested the Voltage at the Timer or Motor before they both stopped working. It did read 80 V a few days ago and read 0 until last night. I explain in my reply above but I took off the Timer motor plate leaving the wires from the breaker box exposed. Took a reading directly at the exposed wires and got 0. Then cut one of the wires down 4" and got a reading of 20. That is were I left off last night.

I haven't tried your advice to remove the conductors. I can't scroll down past "That way you can feel the breaker lock into the proper position on both sides". What do I do after I remove the conductors?

You don't need to remove the conductors (wires) now as you have confirmed 240v at the breakers. If you have it there and not at the timer the break is underground and new wiring will have to be run. Sad but simple.

 

[Haulster]

You don't need to remove the conductors (wires) now as you have confirmed 240v at the breakers. If you have it there and not at the timer the break is underground and new wiring will have to be run. Sad but simple.

Kinda what I thought. Is it that difficult to use the old wires as a pull wire to pull new wire through or am I over simplifying this? I have about a 40' run from box to timer.

 

[Haulster]

Question. Will bad wires underground cause the capacitor to die? Because it is dead.

 

[1poolman1]

Question. Will bad wires underground cause the capacitor to die? Because it is dead.

Can you use the old wire to pull new? Maybe, if the conduit hasn't collapsed and if water hasn't intruded and caused the wire to rust to the conduit wall (yes, the PVC coating will stick to rust). Sometimes very easy, sometimes not so much. Job best left to a pro.

Will low voltage cause a cap to die? It could. How did you test it? The test with an ohm meter is just a general idea of whether it might be bad. It takes a true capacitor tester to tell for sure. You have an old pump sitting in poor conditions and that can cause physical issues with the pump as well.