Newbie needs SLAMing advice, and how much sodium hypochlorite in Clorox Bleach?

[Darlene13]

Okay I see the back wash on your plate for tomorrow.

Yup, going to have to do that today even in the middle of a thunderstorm!

When you do a back wash do you have a sight glass or do you watch the water as it comes out or how do you know if you have clean water coming out?

You mean this clear thingy beside the gauge? I never knew what it was for! To be honest, when I backwash, I watch what is coming out of the backwash hose and stop it when it's improved. I never knew that I could just watch the water in the "sight glass".

Make sure you have plenty of water IN the pool while you do this. Maybe even add water as you are backwashing.

Yes, I will have to throw the hose in the pool and turn it on before I start backwashing just in case.

Thinking------do a back wash until the water runs clear. Do a rinse. When you do the rinse run it for 30 secs. turn off pump, let it settle for a moment, do another rinse for 30 secs., turn off pump, let it settle, do anther rinse, let it settle That is a total of 3 30 second rinses.

My pump says to RINSE for 2 minutes, so I guess I will do 4 x 30 second rinses then.

I would then do ANOTHER backwash and do the rinse just like before.

Gotcha, I will do the whole cycle twice. Thanks, Kim!

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Have you completed the LONG BACKWASH.?

Doing that today, JFB!

 

[Darlene13]

Whoa!!!!! Even if you had channeling in your sand filter, it still wouldn't let debris that large get through. And is that specks of sand that I see? Is there sand on the bottom of the pool near the return jet?

If I could see the bottom of the pool, I could tell you - LOL! Honestly, I'm not sure whether there are specks of sand coming out of the return jet. After I do the long backwash, I'm going to take my microfiber sock from my manual vacuum and hold it over the return jet and then I should be able to tell if there is actually sand coming out of there.

If it is sand coming into your pool, I strongly suspect you have a broken lateral in your sand filter.

No, no, no! Alright, let's not think that right now. How does the lateral get broken anyway?

If you are mechanically inclined, you can fix it yourself. But since it requires removing the sand, which requires a shop vac and high-quality filter masks, you might just want to hire a pool mechanic to do it for you. Significantly more money, but faster and safer for you and family.

I wouldn't exactly say that I'm mechanically inclined!! If I have to hire a pool mechanic, then I may as well have him replace all the PVC and install the proper shut-off valves that I need. Honestly, I hope that it doesn't come to that because this is beyond my means right now.

 

[TomBorg]

How does the lateral get broken anyway?

When you backwash, the grains of sand get lifted partway up into the turbulent water. Then when you turn off the pump, the sand gently settles back down. But if you backwash, then quickly switch to "rinse" and turn the pump back on before the sand has had time to settle back down, it can slam the sand against the laterals with enough force to break them.

Fortunately, the time it takes to turn off the pump, switch to rinse, and turn the pump back on again is usually plenty of time for the sand to settle sufficiently. You just don't want to hurry the process. And definitely don't switch from "backwash" to "rinse" while the pump is running. That is almost guaranteed to break something.

While we're talking physics of backwashing.... When you start the backwash, the top layer of sand lifts off first, and slowly more and more sand gets lifted up into the turbulent water. It can be several minutes before the bottom layer of sand gets lifted up and sifted. This is why a long backwash is helpful for thoroughly cleaning the sand and eliminating channels that have formed in the sand bed, thereby avoiding the need for the labor-intensive "deep clean" process. In other words: You don't always want to stop the backwash the moment the sight glass gets clear; at least occasionally, leave it running a couple minutes longer.

 

[Darlene13]

My pump says to RINSE for 2 minutes, so I guess I will do 4 x 30 second rinses then.

My mistake, my sand filter says to RINSE for 1/2 to 1 minute, so I will do as you suggest with 3 x 30 second rinses.

Alright, I just finished doing 2 5-minute backwashes, each with 3 x 30 second rinses.

Here is what the water looked like coming out of the backwash hose:

It's not "dirty". It's a little cloudy, but no different than the water in the pool. What should the water look like coming out of the backwash hose? I'm curious to see someone else's, if anyone wants to post a photo!

Here's the pressure gauge while backwashing and note that the water looks "clear" in the sight glass:

Here's the pressure gauge while rinsing:

Here's the water coming out of the backwash hose at the second backwash (looks the same to me):

Here's the pressure gauge after two long backwashes when it's back in FILTER position:

Interestingly, even though I am getting debris coming out of the return jet, I think the water clarity has improved ever so slightly since the girls and I were swimming on Friday night and I was able to adjust the eyeball of the return jet! Here's a pic of the pole in the water with the net attached, and you can faintly see the outline of the net as it rests standing on the bottom of the pool:

Here were this morning's test results:

Test #44:

SLAM: 16 ppm FC
FC: 19 ppm
CC: 0.5 ppm

And I'm running low on R-0871 reagent again!! I ordered a 2-oz bottle last time and that's nearly done. I'll have to get the next size up. I SLAMed to FC 21 ppm because I want to make sure it stays above SLAM level all day and I can't test more than twice a day or I'll run out of reagent even more quickly!

Once the rain stops, I'll go out there with the microfiber sock and put it over the return jet to see what I collect after 5 minutes.

 

[Darlene13]

Fortunately, the time it takes to turn off the pump, switch to rinse, and turn the pump back on again is usually plenty of time for the sand to settle sufficiently. You just don't want to hurry the process. And definitely don't switch from "backwash" to "rinse" while the pump is running. That is almost guaranteed to break something.

I can say with certainty that I have NEVER done that, but I can't speak for others!! Both my ex and my dad have backwashed the pool, and I don't know if they follow the correct procedures!

While we're talking physics of backwashing.... When you start the backwash, the top layer of sand lifts off first, and slowly more and more sand gets lifted up into the turbulent water. It can be several minutes before the bottom layer of sand gets lifted up and sifted. This is why a long backwash is helpful for thoroughly cleaning the sand and eliminating channels that have formed in the sand bed, thereby avoiding the need for the labor-intensive "deep clean" process. In other words: You don't always want to stop the backwash the moment the sight glass gets clear; at least occasionally, leave it running a couple minutes longer.

Thank you, TomBorg, for this detailed explanation! It helps to understand how it works. And, fingers crossed, let's hope that my two long backwashes will help!

 

[kimkats]

Interesting! No real change in your pressure after backwashing two good, long times.

The water in the cups do look the same to me.

The water DOES look better! YES!

So here is what I am thinking/hoping! The issue was the circulation of the water. It was not pushing the water into the filter so it was not really being filtered like it should. So with the eyeball fix AND the DE you have coming you should make the difference!

Fingers crossed here!

Kim

 

[Darlene13]

So here is what I am thinking/hoping! The issue was the circulation of the water. It was not pushing the water into the filter so it was not really being filtered like it should. So with the eyeball fix AND the DE you have coming you should make the difference!

Fingers crossed here!

Thanks, Kim! That's my hope as well!!

 

[Darlene13]

Here is what I've caught with the microfiber sock over the return jet after 5 minutes:

Looks like tree/seed debris. I don't believe that there is any sand. But the question is why this is still coming through even after 2 long backwashes?

 

[kimkats]

I do not want to be the one to say........... I am not sure enough to really say........

Do you know what I think it means without me having to say it?????

For right now just keep on SLAMing. There has been some progress. You might make more with the way things are now.

:gone: Kim

 

[TomBorg]

No sand? That would be very good news. Fingers crossed.

Ideas for tracking it down:
1. Do you get all this debris when your solar panels are not in use? Perhaps there's years of accumulated debris in the pipes of the solar panels, and you are slowly flushing it out.

2. If it isn't the solar panels, maybe try this: tear up some colored paper into very tiny pieces, dump them into the skimmer with the basket removed, then hold your sock over the return for a few minutes. If you find the colored paper has come through, then your filter is broken or is being bypassed somehow. Nothing diagnosed for certain, but at least it would narrow it down. If you don't see the colored paper, then the debris is coming from somewhere else, and might get fully flushed out eventually.

Oh, and just to make sure we have all the bases covered.... Is the valve pointing at the HAYWARD logo, where it says "filter/filtration/filtracion"? Just want to make sure you don't have it on "Recirculate" by mistake.

 

[kimkats]

Look what I just read on another post!

"If you can unscrew the eyeball fitting in the return you can screw in plug. If you have 1 1/2" plumbing you would use a 1 1/2" plug."

"There are several ways to block the hoses without a shutoff valve. A tennis ball, or ping pong ball (depending on the size of the opening) will often seal the return port (from the inside) fairly easily. You can also stuff a rag into the return, which tends to leak a little, but not too badly."

Instead of return put in skimmer for the tennis ball idea.

If you can find the screw in plug for the return and if a tennis ball fits on top of the skimmer hole without going in..........You can shut off the water!

That means you can take the top off the filter............aw man I just thought of the black pipe that needs the union. My husband says that YOU can do this. We can walk you through it.

Kim (as you can see I type like I am talking and while I am thinking something out/through)

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Tom!!! That is wonderful! What great ideas!

Kim

 

[Darlene13]

I do not want to be the one to say........... I am not sure enough to really say........

Do you know what I think it means without me having to say it?????

[fingers in ears] La, la, la, la, la, la, la!!

No, don't say it!!!

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1. Do you get all this debris when your solar panels are not in use? Perhaps there's years of accumulated debris in the pipes of the solar panels, and you are slowly flushing it out.

Interesting! Last night when I noticed this, the solar panels were CLOSED. I have not opened the panels all day because we've had thunderstorms and no sunshine. This afternoon when I used the microfiber sock after I backwashed twice, it was while the solar panels were CLOSED.

I'm going to repeat the microfiber sock over the return jet when the panels are OPEN. Not today, though. Tomorrow is supposed to clear.

2. If it isn't the solar panels, maybe try this: tear up some colored paper into very tiny pieces, dump them into the skimmer with the basket removed, then hold your sock over the return for a few minutes. If you find the colored paper has come through, then your filter is broken or is being bypassed somehow. Nothing diagnosed for certain, but at least it would narrow it down. If you don't see the colored paper, then the debris is coming from somewhere else, and might get fully flushed out eventually.

I will try this little experiment probably tomorrow, once the rain is over.

Oh, and just to make sure we have all the bases covered.... Is the valve pointing at the HAYWARD logo, where it says "filter/filtration/filtracion"? Just want to make sure you don't have it on "Recirculate" by mistake.

Nope! It's on FILTER.

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"If you can unscrew the eyeball fitting in the return you can screw in plug. If you have 1 1/2" plumbing you would use a 1 1/2" plug."

Can someone please upload a pic of what the plug is supposed to look like? I don't think that I have one, but I want to be sure.

"There are several ways to block the hoses without a shutoff valve. A tennis ball, or ping pong ball (depending on the size of the opening) will often seal the return port (from the inside) fairly easily. You can also stuff a rag into the return, which tends to leak a little, but not too badly."

A ping pong ball would definitely be too small. I could try a tennis ball in the skimmer to block the hole.

That means you can take the top off the filter............aw man I just thought of the black pipe that needs the union. My husband says that YOU can do this. We can walk you through it.

I'm glad your husband has faith in me, LOL! Alright, tell me what I need and I'll get everything together.

 

[Darlene13]

Here are some more test results:

Test #45 (last night):

SLAM: 16 ppm FC
FC: 17 ppm
CC: 0.5 ppm

I SLAMed to FC 21 overnight.


Test #46 (this morning):

SLAM: 16 ppm FC
FC: 19.5 ppm
CC: 0.5 ppm

So an overnight loss of 1.5 ppm.


I had my pole resting on the pool ledge this morning, and I guess it got really windy and blew into the pool. When I got home from work, I looked everywhere for it, and I saw it --- did you hear that? I SAW it -- on the bottom of the pool!! I actually saw something lying on the bottom of the pool!!!

Here is me holding the pole with the net attached:

The net is even more visible than it was yesterday, and you can even tell the colour of the net! Does anyone want to guess??

I put the microfiber sock over the return jet, and this is what I caught after 5 minutes with the solar panels OPEN (they were closed yesterday, and TomBorg was asking if there was a difference in whether the panels were open or closed in relation to the debris):

There are dead bugs in there, tree/seed debris, but still no sand! That's good, right? It does not appear to make a difference whether the solar panels are open or closed, I'm getting debris from the return jet either way.

I'm off to try TomBorg's experiment with the coloured paper! Will report back shortly.

 

[jenn82766]

Ive been following your thread....just out of curiousity... how many gallons of chlorine have you used per day? Im up to 12 per day and just started this process....that's a **** load of money per day !!! I just started this process but Im definilty intimidated thinking I could spend $400 by day 10 !!!!

 

[JFB]

Ive been following your thread....just out of curiousity... how many gallons of chlorine have you used per day? Im up to 12 per day and just started this process....that's a **** load of money per day !!! I just started this process but Im definilty intimidated thinking I could spend $400 by day 10 !!!!

jenn82766. Can you give me a link to your thread? If you're throwing in 12 gallons of chlorine a day, either you have a lot of algae in there, in which case, your consumption will decrease as the algae dies off, or the sun consumes a lot of your chlorine, which usually means your CYA (stabilizer) is low.

If you link me to your thread, I can see your complete test results and try to offer advice.

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I had my pole resting on the pool ledge this morning, and I guess it got really windy and blew into the pool. When I got home from work, I looked everywhere for it, and I saw it --- did you hear that? I SAW it -- on the bottom of the pool!! I actually saw something lying on the bottom of the pool!!! .

Yea. That's right... you're getting there. Albeit very slowly, but these things take time, and there's never any telling how long or how little time is needed.

So looking at what is coming out of your jet, is there a spot on your property where you can find all that stuff? Oh, and of course, I'm assuming you have stopped the pump, removed the pump cover and cleaned the pump basket?

Trying to eliminate the obvious...

 

[Darlene13]

2. If it isn't the solar panels, maybe try this: tear up some colored paper into very tiny pieces, dump them into the skimmer with the basket removed, then hold your sock over the return for a few minutes. If you find the colored paper has come through, then your filter is broken or is being bypassed somehow. Nothing diagnosed for certain, but at least it would narrow it down. If you don't see the colored paper, then the debris is coming from somewhere else, and might get fully flushed out eventually.

I just finished your little experiment, TomBorg!

Here is the paper:

It took about 2 minutes, but at least some of the paper did come out of the return jet. It's really hard to tell from the pic (my camera loses focus when I zoom, sorry!), but you can see a square above the green leaf right in the centre. Also, the longer that I held that net over the jet, the more it made the paper squares disintegrate with the force of the water. If you look real close, you might see some purple pulp on the net:

So, TomBorg, what do you think is going on??

 

[TomBorg]

Well, something is definitely broken in your filter, which explains why the water is still cloudy.

Scenario A. Broken lateral in the filter. But you're not getting sand in the bag? Perhaps the lateral broke years ago, and most of the sand has already been pumped out. Regular vacuuming to waste would have allowed the previous owner to avoid dealing with the problem until he sold the property.

Scenario B. There's something broken in the valve, and water is being pumped through the recirculate path instead. I'd expect to have seen more of the paper in this case, but perhaps the majority was shredded down to individual fibers in its travels through the pump.

If we sit here long enough, I'm sure we can think of lots more. But no matter what, you'll need to open up that filter and examine the contents. There's a decent youtube video on changing the sand in a sand filter, which may help you figure out what steps to take first.

To finally answer Kimkat's question a couple pages ago... Silica dust can cause serious health problems. When the sand is wet and the dust is minimal, and/or you're just doing the one filter, you may think it is worth the risk not to wear protection. Personally, I'm a coward. If you are adding new, dry sand, there will be lots of dust, and a filter mask really is a good idea. Especially if you're in a garage with no wind to carry the silica dust away from you.

From an OSHA publication on silica:

Crystalline silica has been classified
as a human lung carcinogen. Additionally, breathing
crystalline silica dust can cause silicosis, which
in severe cases can be disabling, or even fatal.
The respirable silica dust enters the lungs and
causes the formation of scar tissue, thus reducing
the lungs’ ability to take in oxygen. There is no
cure for silicosis. Since silicosis affects lung function,
it makes one more susceptible to lung infections
like tuberculosis. In addition, smoking causes
lung damage and adds to the damage caused by
breathing silica dust.

The risk is more about prolonged or repeated exposure, such as in the workplace. But even if you're just exposed the one time, why take the risk?

 

[Darlene13]

Ive been following your thread....just out of curiousity... how many gallons of chlorine have you used per day? Im up to 12 per day and just started this process....that's a **** load of money per day !!! I just started this process but Im definilty intimidated thinking I could spend $400 by day 10 !!!!

Hi, jenn82766!

I'm on Day 24 of my first SLAM. I went through 5 jugs of Clorox before switching to Liquid Chlorine. I'm on my 13th 5-litre jug. In total, I've used 78 litres so far, so that's 20 gallons.

How big is your pool? 12 gallons per day sounds like an awful lot!! I paid $8.99 for 2 cases (3 in each) of Clorox and $3.99 x 15 jugs of liquid chlorine on sale. Now I'm kicking myself for not buying more because I thought that would be enough!! So, roughly $78 plus taxes so far.

 

[Darlene13]

So looking at what is coming out of your jet, is there a spot on your property where you can find all that stuff?

We are surrounded by trees!

So, yes, it's absolutely possible.

Oh, and of course, I'm assuming you have stopped the pump, removed the pump cover and cleaned the pump basket

Yup, did that yesterday before my two long backwashes. It was pretty clean. Just one part of it had tree pollen in it.

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How big is your pool?

Sorry, jenn82766. I just noticed in your signature line that our pools are the same size. I'll going to hunt down your thread.

 

[Darlene13]

Well, something is definitely broken in your filter, which explains why the water is still cloudy.

Shoot, I was afraid of that

Scenario A. Broken lateral in the filter. But you're not getting sand in the bag? Perhaps the lateral broke years ago, and most of the sand has already been pumped out. Regular vacuuming to waste would have allowed the previous owner to avoid dealing with the problem until he sold the property.

We installed the pool, so no previous owners. No, I am not seeing any sand in the microfiber bag. Because of the plumbing set-up, I know for a fact that we've never opened up the sand filter since installation. Otherwise, I would have realized before now that there are no shut-off valves between the skimmer and the pump and also between the pump and the sand filter.

Scenario B. There's something broken in the valve, and water is being pumped through the recirculate path instead. I'd expect to have seen more of the paper in this case, but perhaps the majority was shredded down to individual fibers in its travels through the pump.

What if I try something that won't be broken down, like glitter? Maybe a tablespoon? Or do you think that would risk clogging somewhere?

If we sit here long enough, I'm sure we can think of lots more. But no matter what, you'll need to open up that filter and examine the contents. There's a decent youtube video on changing the sand in a sand filter, which may help you figure out what steps to take first.

Thanks for that link, TomBorg. I'm going to have to deal with the plumbing first, I guess!