New rectangular IG in Mesa, AZ

spoonman

Well-known member
Jun 16, 2016
383
Peoria, AZ
Here is a friendly piece of advice. I’m not sure if you have umbrella sleeves, but I’d suggest having 3 or 4 in the AZ heat. I have 1 on my Baja step and wish I had more. You may wish you had some around different areas of the pool. Also, they can double as volleyball sleeves if desired depending on placement. Out here in the desert you can never seem to have enough shade.
 

cwstnsko

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2007
54
Mesa, AZ
...
I also expressed some skepticism about the usefulness of the Venturi skimmers, take a look...I could be totally wrong on that, wondering what you think.

Edit: Oh by the way..sorry to jump right into shop talk, haha. Your pool dig looks great! Love the cabana extending from the ?garage? What’s the plan there, an outdoor kitchen?
I haven’t researched the Venturi skimmer extensively, but the concept seems sound to maintain good volume through the skimmer basket at low pump speeds. I believe it’s the only skimmer that California Pools uses, and they have a pretty good reputation.

The cabana is attached to the detached 20x50 RV garage 🙂. That garage and the location is what brought us to look at a houses in the neighborhood that ours is being built in.
 

cwstnsko

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2007
54
Mesa, AZ
Now they are routing it all back to the equipment pad area

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Tomorrow they should finish tying it all together, adding in all the wall return lines and therapy jet lines, seal it all and pressurize it to check for leaks
 

cwstnsko

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2007
54
Mesa, AZ
If anyone is interested in the specifics of the PCC2000 layout, I got an image of that as well. It has 2 fixed floor jets and 2 down-flow wall jets that create something of a vortex around the main drain to draw in debris. There are 2 extra down-flow wall jets that appear to sweep corners which might otherwise be dead zones. There are a total of six "zones" of heads that cycle with the large jet in the shallowest end near the shelf cycling twice in the rotation, once before and once after the jets on the steps and shelf. The large floor jet marked for circuit 2 appears to be a limited sweep head designed to move debris from this end of the pool towards the main drain.
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cwstnsko

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2007
54
Mesa, AZ
I expect they will finish the plumbing today, pressurize it and do the electrical. After that the Construction Manager does a check, asks for any fixes he wants. When CM is happy, it goes to the city for pre-gunnite inspection. When the city buys off, they are clear for gunnite. I expect that it will be towards the end of next week since they are likely to lose access to the yard again for a few days while the home builder is replacing some sidewalks that got damaged during construction and finishing the pavers on the driveway. It would be awesome if they shot gunnite on a Friday so that I could be there to take care of the watering for the 1st few days. Since I live several miles away (don't own the house yet) and work full time, I will have to rely on the pool company to take care of much of the watering if they shoot it early in the week. With temperatures returning to seasonal (105-110), I'm guessing there will be a sprinkler involved :)
 

cwstnsko

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2007
54
Mesa, AZ
Another day, more progress. Plumbing and electrical rough in complete

Spa plumbing in and Water feature provisions

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In floor valve fully tied in
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Cover Box drain in
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Runs back to equipment area finished
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Entire system pressurized and holding pressure, ready for final check by Construction Manager before bring the city out to inspect
 

jonpcar

Bronze Supporter
Jun 1, 2016
423
Gilbert, AZ
If anyone is interested in the specifics of the PCC2000 layout, I got an image of that as well. It has 2 fixed floor jets and 2 down-flow wall jets that create something of a vortex around the main drain to draw in debris. There are 2 extra down-flow wall jets that appear to sweep corners which might otherwise be dead zones. There are a total of six "zones" of heads that cycle with the large jet in the shallowest end near the shelf cycling twice in the rotation, once before and once after the jets on the steps and shelf. The large floor jet marked for circuit 2 appears to be a limited sweep head designed to move debris from this end of the pool towards the main drain.

Hey Chris...thanks for posting the details. When I have previously read about PCC2000 I have always wondered about its claims to direct debris towards the drain (given that most, like mine, just push/suspend debris until it randomly gets sucked into the drain). Seeing your actual plans, I can see that it is a VERY different design than most IFCS systems. In particular, IFCS designs usually have more heads per zone and require most (if not all) of the “return flow” directed to the popups for them to operate effectively. A couple of your zones only have 1,2 heads respectively and there are more “directioning heads” than I expected: downjets, special heads.

I’ve done an analysis of my IFCS and have “tuned” it to make it much more effective, which involved opening a parallel “return flow” via the wall returns while the popups are operating. Your PCC2000 system seems to have “many” of these parallel return flows: (1) all of the downjets, which I assume run constantly and are not tied to a particular zone (or maybe some are, just not shown on diagram), and (2) your Venturi skimmer which requires some portion of the return flow as well. I think you are right about the engineering that must be done for these IFCS’s to operate effectively...having Paramount design it was definitely the way to go.

All the pictures, wow...your pool is looking great! But at this point, I have to admit that I am still most in love with that “garage” haha.
 

cwstnsko

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2007
54
Mesa, AZ
As I understand it, the fixed heads run whenever the IFCS is in use. The circuits with the single head use a head that is much larger than my old PV3 heads, with a large opening that allows them to flow a lot of water and cover a larger area. The heads on the steps and benches appear to be similar to my old PV3 heads, and the number on a circuit is related to the size of orifice cap that is installed on the heads. I did some fine tuning of the steps and benches in my old PV3 system by swapping out orifice caps. Watching the pressure gauge on the water valve was a good way to tell if the combination of the number of heads and the orifice sizes were in the sweet spot on each circuit.
The down jets may run all the time like regular returns. They run together as their plumbing run is a loop but they are on a separate plumbing run from the skimmer venturi return, so they may be turned off when the water pots are on, etc. My old pool didn’t have automation, so this part of the new pool will be a fun learning adventure.
In Arizona, before Paddock pools got mismanaged into oblivion, they had a PCC 2000 demo pool with a big underground viewing window so you could watch it work. They would throw a bunch of stuff in the pool so you could watch it systematically clean it out. I didn’t realize it at the time, but apparently, at least in the Phoenix area, Paramount had an exclusive deal with Paddock, so if you wanted the PCC 2000, you had to have your pool built by them. Now that Paddock is gone, more builders can offer it. An analogy that just popped into my head is that the old IFCS is like the less expensive robot house vacuums that don’t know anything about you house, but just randomly bounce around and happen upon a lot of stuff on the way, where a new engineered IFCS is more like the expensive robot house vacuums that have vision systems and learn your floor plan and clean systematically.
I’m really looking forward to the garage. I had it built with a half bath and A/C just in case I end up spending a disproportionate amount of my time there. 🙂 I only wish that I had found the house before the slab was poured so I could have gotten the 8x8 roll-up door leading to the cabana that they offer as an option.
I probably won’t have an update on the pool until sometime next week. Apparently the city hasn’t completed some portion of the permit (gas, I think) and it apparently is not appropriate to request a city inspection until the last bit of the permit comes back early next week.
For anyone with eagle eyes, the Construction Manager did come back and tie in a bit more steel in a few areas where the plumbers had to tweak the steel to make all the spa plumbing fit, but the system is holding pressure at 35-38 psi (cold vs hot) and is ready for pre-gunnite inspection.
 
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jonpcar

Bronze Supporter
Jun 1, 2016
423
Gilbert, AZ
In Arizona, before Paddock pools got mismanaged into oblivion, they had a PCC 2000 demo pool with a big underground viewing window so you could watch it work. They would throw a bunch of stuff in the pool so you could watch it systematically clean it out. I didn’t realize it at the time, but apparently, at least in the Phoenix area, Paramount had an exclusive deal with Paddock, so if you wanted the PCC 2000, you had to have your pool built by them. Now that Paddock is gone, more builders can offer it.
I remember that Paddock demonstration pool...when I saw it, it was about 1985. I think they called it PCC2000 then because it was named for the future year 2K which seemed so far away (like Prince’s song 1999, haha...come and gone). I’m surprised Paramount hasn’t updated it with a PCC3000 nomenclature. Yeah, Paddock was a disaster especially near the end...I had a bid from them to redo my plaster, and I felt sorry for the salesman.

It sounds like you have quite a bit of experience with evaluation of the IFCS. Automation does add some huge benefits to the IFCS. A couple recommendations.

1) make sure that your automation equipment can select 100% suction from the main drain when running the IFCS, that will make it clean most effectively, especially with your system. As I think you have mentioned, “cleaning” usually only needs to be done for at most 2-3 hours/day.

2) make sure that you can define a low RPM (1200-1500) skimming/circulation/filtering time that suctions 100% from the skimmer, and 100% return to your wall returns/Venturi skimmer. The IFCS introduces inefficiency (head) that should be bypassed when just skimming. In my system, it was significant.
 

shocka

Gold Supporter
Mar 12, 2018
34
Mesa, AZ
Awesome build thread. Thank you for taking the time to add all the detailed pictures and narratives. Agree with previous comments that the plumbing, electrical and steel work looks really good.
 

cwstnsko

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2007
54
Mesa, AZ
Just a quick update. Things have started moving again. Apparently neither the pool builder nor the city work pools with auto-covers very frequently. The pool builder was sending info to the city with a lot of extraneous detail that was not really needed based on my design having a cover. Long story made short: After 3 rounds of catch-ball with the city, I suggested to them to simplify their submission and highlight the pool cover as addressing 100% the barrier requirements. Shortly after the simplified design with more explicit reference to the cover was submitted, we got the final permit approval so we are schedules for pre-gunnite inspection tomorrow. I'll get some new pictures since they have dug a bunch of the Gas lines and made it even more chaotic than it was before. If there is an upside to the delay, it allowed us to discover an extremely slow leak (losing about 0.5 PSI per day) in one of the pipe joints in the spa jet plumbing. They thought is was a skimmer issue (probably leaking plugs) but after they re-pressurized the system adding more water, a very slow drip became obvious. That is now fixed, and the plumbing is holding air without losing any pressure change that isn't explained by temperature change.
 
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cwstnsko

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2007
54
Mesa, AZ
The pool passed the pre-gun nite inspection last week. The gunnite crew is coming tomorrow morning to double check that the rebar is tied to their satisfaction, then they are supposed to start shooting it shortly after that, so I may have gunnite as soon as tomorrow! 🙂