New pool One month later disappointed with plaster

Here is the values of my fill water

PH-6.9
TA-90
CH-100

Dirk, thanks for the advice. After first pointing the issue out while he was at the house to replace a faulty pump we’ve only exchanged texts. I was planning on sending another text to state additional concerns with doing the acid bath. I think I’ll draft all my questions and when he’s here see if my neighbor can be present. I may also follow up with a certified letter expressing our dissatisfaction and what we think the resolution should be.

if I may ask how long did you wait before having it repaired by another company? I was thinking about getting a quote just to have that number on my pocket

OMG!! That’s your fill water out of the hose ???

The fill water has a CSI (calcite saturation index) of -1.05. Anything less than -0.6 is considered very aggressive towards plaster. That water should have never been allowed to fill the pool without pre-treatment with baking soda and/or calcium chloride such that the combination of TA + CH was greater than 350ppm or so. That’s one reason why you have those fill marks in the deep end - highly aggressive water was jetted at the plaster.

Either the PB or the plaster applicator should have checked the fill water for appropriate saturation balance. If you look at the NPC Technical Bulletin for plaster startups, they clearly mention making sure the LSI (Langlier Saturation Index, similar time CSI) of the fill water is not aggressive ?‍♂️
 
So in CA, there's a guideline for the timetable, though not sure it's actual law or not. You have to present a contractor with your complaint, and the acceptable solution, in writing. You have to allow him a reasonable time to correct the issue. You have to mention in the letter that you'll be taking legal action should he refuse to correct the issue. Then you wait. I think I gave him two weeks in the letter. Then waited at least a month, to be safe. He had an "expert" come in to assess the problem. The expert was from the NPC (National Plasterers Council), so that established a good baseline for my case. Then, because I liked that guy, and he himself was a plasterer, I had him do the repair after the original contractor refused. Kinda called the guys bluff, and covered my bases all in one strategic move. We exchanged lots of letters, he shot himself in the foot several times. I got the CA Board involved with a formal complaint. I learned a lot about how officially they can't do all that much (which was a major surprise and disappointment), but my case worker had some tricks up her sneeze. I had actually given up on them, and was preparing a small claims case, when the contractor caved and paid up. I never did find out what she said to him, but it worked.

My MO was a bit risky, as I had the pool repaired before I went to court. I gambled a bit by doing it that way. But my pool had to be repaired one way or another, and the contractor wasn't going to do it, and frankly I didn't want him to, so I really didn't have a choice. You'll have to decide if you want to roll that dice, or go to small claims first, to make sure you're going to get reimbursed. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Write the letter. Send it certified. You can find resources on the 'net that describe what must be included. Start with the CA Board's website, they offer some resources. Or a google search will reveal all kinds of advice about such letters (that's where I got mine).

Did you pay him everything yet? In case you haven't, don't, you don't have to just yet. More later, if you need...

I wrote about this at length here, but I can't seem to find my old posts. No matter, I'll help you if I can.
 
Oh, convert over to email, or certified mail. Texts are hard to capture, print, save, display, etc. And back up what you've got so far, before you lose them, or the phone. Keep backup hard copies of all your correspondence, whatever form you use. You never know when a single sentence might be worth $9K or so, so keep 'em all safe.
 
Thanks Dirk. I’m here in the Central Valley of california. I’m still not sure who the Pb used as a plasterer. I’m sure it wasn’t the plasterer of choice for most of the pools in our area. If I don’t hear from him by Monday I’ll be calling and following up with a certified letter to outline our issues and what we see as the solution. I filled out a form and tried to call the npc. We already had the final payment released since initially the pool looked fine. On reflection i guess I should have waited a bit longer
 
It is the low pH of the fill water that is of concern. You might check that a couple times to be sure the sub7 number is consistent.
 
I checked my ph from the faucet again this morning. I used my ph meter. Before I checked the water I checked the meter against 7.0 reference solution and it was spot on. I rinsed it with distilled water and checked the fill water and it was at 6.9
As far as I know the Pb nor the plasterer checked the fill water. I told them I had put our water softener in bypass mode for the fill. Regardless the faucets I used should not have soft water coming out of them anyway since they are both before the water softener.
I was pretty much left on my own to care for the pool water chem after the pool was done. There was no “pool school”. Other than the Pb adding granulated shockwave and a gallon of liquid stabilizer I was on my own with some guidance from here. When I checked my ph after the build I had contacted the Pb to tell him my ph had risen above 8 and he told me to add Muriatic acid which I did. Then he came by and added more a week later when it had risen again. It was then ( a week after the pool was filled) that he added the shock and stabilizer. I posted my pool numbers above from yesterday and i can’t see them being too terrible. Of course now with this happening I’ve questioned everything I’ve done with regards to maintaining the pool.
 
Side note on text messages. During and shortly after our pool build, I felt like I needed to hang onto the six-month long thread (yes, six months) of text messages to and from the pool builder. I found a PC program for capturing and saving messages from an iPhone. It can capture and export messages from an iPhone backup done on iTunes. iDeviceApps is the name of the program, or maybe that's the company. The top of the screen just says "Export Messages" and automatically lists all the iPhone backups it sees on your computer, if you're using the default iTunes backup folder; otherwise you might have to navigate to your backup. Not very expensive and creates a potentially useful archive, especially when your pool builder accidentally leaks the truth in a text reply and later doesn't remember saying what he said. I don't recall now where or how I found it, but I see the support contact is [email protected], so clearly they're a small time outfit. A slightly convoluted process the first time, it works. There are probably others, too. Just do a search for "export iphone text messages to pc."
 

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Thanks for the tips on the texts. One more question. Does anyone know how I would go about getting a professional consult on my issue if I need to go to that level to push for a complete chip out and replaster?

Reading the pool contract these people really cover themselves against almost everything unless the pool shell doesn’t hold water. “Plaster isn’t warranted against discoloration, staining, chipping or cracking since such plaster defects generally result from local water, improper use of chemicals or improper cleaning.”

Also, I assume since Pb is talking about doing an acid treatment this is going to etch the surface causing a rough surface which is what we wanted to avoid by doing a plaster finish.
 
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I gave you some thoughts on acid washing back in post #17. When my pool was acid washed, the sections that weren't completely destroyed, felt almost sticky. My hand didn't glide over it as before. Definitely etched. Definitely not as smooth as the pre-washed plaster finish. Granted, I've only had direct experience with the one acid wash that occurred in my own pool, but I just don't see how a contractor that is hired to apply plaster, who later has to acid wash it to correct the symptoms of a bungled installation and/or fill, can claim that to be an equitable solution.

And note that I said symptoms. Even if your contractor possesses the skill to acid wash your plaster finish to your aesthetic satisfaction (look and feel), I don't believe acid washing is going to cure the underlying cause of the symptoms, which in all likelihood was sub-standard application techniques. (And Matt has already given you the proof that establishes the fill was done incorrectly.)

Sorry, I didn't choose my consultant, the contractor did, so I don't know how to do that. I'm not sure I'd allow that again, knowing what I now know, but it happened to work out in my favor.

Here are some tips that someone taught me, that helped me get through the "negotiating" phase of my ordeal. Say as little as possible. Don't offer any information if you can help it. Don't admit to anything. And only ask questions, don't make claims or accusations. Let the other party hang itself. The fill information Matt gave you is a perfect example. Don't say something like: "I learned that my fill water was very aggressive. It's your fault that those stains were caused by the hose because you never tested the fill water beforehand!" That would allow him to make up some excuse, or blame you because you didn't test it, or claim that he did test it and buffered the water correctly, etc. Don't teach him how to defend his actions. You can lose all your leverage on that point. Instead, you ask: "Did you test the fill water before you put it in the pool?" and "Did you treat the fill water in any way before you put it in the pool" When he replies "No, why?" bingo! You've got him dead to rights. You don't even have to answer his question. Keep your cards to yourself. At most you say "Just wondering." Instead of giving him a way out of that blunder, you've captured a very important piece of evidence in your favor, just by asking questions. This is what I describing before, and why I was recommending exchanges in writing, and/or to have a witness present. If you can get him to answer a question like that in a certified letter, he's done. Or if he answers it in front of a third party. If that exchange happens only between you and he, verbally, and he later figures out why you asked him that, then he could come up with a lie or later claim he never said that. So prepare for your meeting. Figure out what you want to get him to say, admit. And prepare questions that would get him to say it.

This is how I got my contractor to incriminate himself, in writing. With that in hand, I had no trouble showing the CA Board that the damage was clearly the contractors doing, and that led to my positive resolution. Had I gone to court, I'd have presented the letters (or a witness) to the judge for the same results.

By the way, you should capture somehow the results of your fill water testing. Something that clearly establishes the current fill water chemistry and the date of the test. My fill water changes a bit throughout the year, because my municipality acquires it from multiple sources: a dam for part of the year, ground water wells other parts of the year. My fill water chemistry varies by season. You don't want some primary evidence disappearing on you. You might take your fill water to a pool store. If they get the same results, that'd suffice. Leslies, for example, gives you a dated printout. That might come in real handy if you have to take your evidence to the Board or a judge.
 
Super advice, Dirk. I'm not having any problems personally, but who knows what tomorrow will bring. As to documenting water chemistry, this might be one of the times that the pool store could be of value, if they print a report of their water tests. I know Leslie's does. I always get their reports and do my own TF100 tests at the same time to see how accurate they are and sometimes how accurate I am. My ph meter, for example, seems really flaky and erratic giving way different results from my Taylor chlorine/pH color drop tests, even right after calibration.
 
I took my water to the local leslies store and had them check the pool and tap water against my testing using the tf-100. Everything was in line with my testing except the CH. They had the pool CH at 150. Mine using speedstir was at 250. They had the hose water CH at 50 and I measured 100. My wife was my double set of eyes. So not sure why Leslie was so low compared to my testing. They had ph at little higher than my meter but they had 7.8 and the meter showed 7.7
 
Their process is the same as the tf100. The way I do it using a speedstir is fill tube to the 10ml. 10 drops of the R-0010 and stir, 3 drops of the R-0011L and stir. Then While stirring add a drop at a time of the R-0012 until it turns and stays blue and Multiply x25
 
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OK -- so they use a Taylor drop test kit. Most have switched to electronic testers.

A Speedstir helps with CH testing. I would still use your test results.
 
Yes, your testing for your pool, but Leslie's for your evidence, as long as Leslie's results calculate to an LSI that shows the fill water to be aggressive. For the purpose of your case, an "official" (like a judge or case worker from the Board) will give more credence to a "professional" analysis (printed and dated) than to that of a "novice" pool owner (scratched out on a slip of paper).
 
The fill water has a CSI (calcite saturation index) of -1.05. Anything less than -0.6 is considered very aggressive towards plaster. That water should have never been allowed to fill the pool without pre-treatment with baking soda and/or calcium chloride such that the combination of TA + CH was greater than 350ppm or so. That’s one reason why you have those fill marks in the deep end - highly aggressive water was jetted at the plaster.

Either the PB or the plaster applicator should have checked the fill water for appropriate saturation balance. If you look at the NPC Technical Bulletin for plaster startups, they clearly mention making sure the LSI (Langlier Saturation Index, similar time CSI) of the fill water is not aggressive ?‍♂️
@JoyfulNoise, can you help Cyclist7531 calculate CSI and/or LSI based on the pool store numbers, or teach us how to do it, to see if they're more or less aggressive than using Cyclist7531's test kit numbers. From his pool store:
pH: 7.2
TA: 90
CH: 50

And can I trouble you to point Cyclist7531 to the "NPC Technical Bulletin for plaster startups." I couldn't find that with a google search or a search on NPC's website.

Cyclist7531, these would both be good bullets to have in the chamber...
 

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