New pool in upstate NY...I've never owned a pool before so I'm looking for advice

[Karen14]

We just signed off on the design of the pool but have not discussed specifics on equipment...looking for advice there. We will have 2 colorlogic LED lights a 300K BTU gas powered heater a sand filtration system (I think) and a salt generator. The company they use for equipment is Hayward.

We are currently working on landscaping plans. We have a lot to do so we are sticking to a non-paver option for the pool deck. I like the look of the exposed aggregate concrete and have read about them being rough on the feet (although some say that it is dependent on the size of the aggregate) I don't like stamped concrete for slippery reasons.

This is a vinyl liner pool and we selected the sandstone liner from the thevinylworks.com. It should give a light bluish-green water color.

The weather here has been unseasonably warm and they are thinking that they will begin in April, possibly March. Many decisions to make before then and lots to learn.

 

[gwegan]

That's a big pool it needs at least three light so it doesn't have dark areas especially if LEDs. I would also get a larger heater. It actually costs less with a larger heater than with smaller heater to heat up the pool on a pool of your size because you lose less heat during the shorter heating period. 400K BTU. I would stay away from exposed aggregate. The experience is its not comfortable. There are plenty of other things you can do-- stamped, salt finish. Talk to the concrete guy directly or pull that out of your contract and find your own concrete guy.

 

[kimkats]

HI! What fun! Scary and exciting at the same time!

Make sure you get model numbers for all of your equipment. We will be able to tell you if it is big enough for your pool size.

I would like for you to share where this neat pool will be going! That will help us help you also!

Kim

 

[JamieP]

I love those L-shaped pools! Before we settled on doing a gunite pool, we were considering a liner pool pretty much exactly like yours. I like how the inside of the L makes for a natural decking area between the pool and the house (if that's how you end up positioning it), and the short end of the L gives a nice area for a shallow end if you want to have a deep end too. I'll look forward to following your progress!

 

[Texas Splash]

Oh, and by the way Karen .... welcome to TFP! Post a full list of equipment components and the gang here will help keep you straight. Have a great weekend.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So I'm calculating your pool volume to be approximately 35,000 gallons. That's a huge pool for a salt water chlorine generator. If your going with Hayward equipment then you're going to need their largest cell, a T-15. Even then, I'm not really sure that cell will be able to keep up. At 1.5lbs of chlorine gas per day (that's what the T-15 puts out), you're looking at ~ 5ppm FC production per day. A clean, well balanced pool during the height of the swim season will easily consume 2-3ppm FC per day and, if you add a pool party or lots kids using it every day, then a salt cell will barely be able to keep up. This means you will be running the cell at 100% output for many hours out of the day and, because SWGs only produce chlorine when the pump is running, the pump will run a lot too. A Pentair IntelliChlor IC-60 produces more chlorine per day (~2lbs/day) but even that is on the knife-edge of acceptable. You might want to consider a Stenner pump (peristaltic bleach pump) instead of an SWG.

And, as is my mantra and personal opinion, in your plumbing design, you absolutely want to have a dedicated vacuum line EVEN IF you are not going to use a suction side cleaner (many people these days prefer robots). A dedicated suction line lets you hook up a manual vacuum easily and, don't be fooled by the slick talking salesman out there, you will manually vacuum your pool from time to time.

I say you'll need at least two skimmers and four (4) returns, with 1 return definitely at the stairs.

Get the biggest sand filter your budget can afford (bigger is better).

Variable speed pump

Stay away from all the useless gizmos (UV sanitation, Ozone generators, mineral systems, etc)

 

[Karen14]

Thanks for the advice! I have a lot to learn. From what you all suggest and what I have read as well it looks like a 400k heater would be best as well as a variable speed pump. I'm a bit conflicted on the filter system. It seems as though a cartridge system cleans better but is more effort to maintain it then a sand system. I don't think I want to deal with the de on that system so I'm leaning toward either the cartridge or salt system. We are on a well that does not have a great flow rate, I'm not sure if that will be an issue with maintaining pool volume. I don't really have a good understanding of how much water it takes to run a backwash cycle.

As for the salt generator, this was never discussed as a problem with our pool builder. Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to educate myself on that before I meet with the on again. I really want the salt system, I'm going for easy as much as possible here since I am so new to all of this.

Thanks for for the advice on the vacuum line, I would have not thought to ask for that. Is there a large upgrade cost with that?

Embarrassingly, I don't know where or how many skimmers and returns are planned, is that difficult/costly to change. I know I have to do these things at this phase.

as for the lights that is an obvious place to save money if I don't need three. Would it be terrible to just have the two. Will there be shadows? I think they are positioned on the 30ft wall of the shallow end and the inner wall of the long side of the deep end (the 21ft wall).

thanks everyone! This is very helpful.

 

[Texas Splash]

Karen, Matt's advice is sound and something you'll want to be armed with as you finalize your plans. The thing is, once that pool is done - it's done. You want no regrets with that investment. Some things (like plumbing) can't be changed later once the concrete is poured. So if you can get a dedicated vacuum line, definitely do it. An additional light or return is not a huge cost increase, but makes sense before the concrete is poured. The additional light will make nighttime swimming enjoyable, and the return(s) will ensure proper circulation in a pool shape design like yours where water movement can be tricky. Same with the number of skimmers. Placement is key to ensure surface debris and water are circulated. As for the equipment, if must be robust enough to meet the demands of that size pool, otherwise is will either cause more work for you, or exhaust the service life of the equipment and fail early. I'm not a design expert, but many folks here are, so continue to get info from your builder and feel free to post back with more questions.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Karen,

The most important thing to remember is this - this is YOUR pool. Do not let the pool builder pressure you into doing anything "right now!" or allow him to force what he wants on you. Take your time to research all the options and get lots of advice here on TFP as the collective experience and wisdom on this site outstrips any PB's experience. Get a pool design with a spec sheet and rough plumbing/electrical layout and then, take a pause. Allow yourself time to review the plans and the specs and post them here with any questions. Your PB will want to rush you into doing things "now, now, now" because "he's a busy guy" and if you don't do what he wants "you'll lose your place on his work schedule". BULL !! This is your pool and your hard earned money therefore YOU call the shots.

As for a dedicated vacuum line, it's nothing more than an extra run of PVC line from the pool to the equipment pad. It's cheap to do now but can not be added in later when the pool is built.

Cartridge filters, even the biggest ones you can get, must be taken apart and cleaned at least once per year. Whatever gunk was in your pool (hair, leaves, dirt, etc) will be stuck to the cartridge and you'll be washing it clean with a garden hose. It's heavy work for an hour or so. A sand filter is easier to operate and you backwash it as needed. The backwashing process uses your pool pump in reverse to force water backwards through the sand medium and then out the backwash line. All (most) debris and gunk is washed away to wherever the backwash line is plumbed (either open discharge somewhere on your property OR connected to the city sewer clean-out line. Sand filters don't filter the finer particulates as well but you can actually add a small amount of DE (1 cup or less) to a sand filter to boost it's fine particulate filtration performance.

As for being on well water, that presents another issue. Have you had your well water tested by a water testing company or the county water authority (sometimes they do this for free for homeowners with wells)? Well water, especially in NY, can have lots of iron in it (and some other metals too). Iron in your fill water will turn the water brown once you start chlorinating it and can potentially be a staining problem on your liner. So, in order to know how to handle this, you really need to know what is coming out of your well. If there's lots of iron, then you might want to consider trucking in water to fill your pool initially so as to avoid high iron content.

As for salt - I really would love to see you get an SWG with all of it's convenience but, as TexasSplash said, if it's too undersized for you needs, it's just going to add cost and annoyance. Your pool builder will likely tell you that a T-15 cell is totally fine and the right size for your pool. That is because they follow the industry standards that say 1-3ppm free chlorine (FC) is all you need in a pool. That standard is absolutely wrong and we here on TFP have debunked it year after year. There is a distinct and well understood (at least in the scientific community) relationship between the sanitizing power of chlorine (what is called active chlorine) and the concentration of stabilizer in your pool water (called cyanuric acid or CYA). Thus, if you want your water to be properly chlorinated so that it is clean and clear, you must maintain a correct ratio of free chlorine (FC) to CYA. If you let the FC drop too low with respect to the CYA concentration, then algae can grow. If you you add too much stabilizer (CYA) to your water, then the FC becomes ineffective and algae can grow. This is all detailed in our Pool School sections on water chemistry and I would urge you to give it all a quick read even though you're still in the build stage. Once you understand the chlorine/stabilizer relationship, it makes it much easier to figure out if the equipment you are being sold is adequate for the task. Since salt water chlorine generators can only generate a finite amount of chlorine each 24-hour period, the cell has to be large enough in order to create enough chlorine for your pool. For pools under 25,000 gallons, there are enough choices on the market to make that feasible. Once pools start getting larger than 30k gallons, the SWG units that are on the market start to hit the limits of proper FC production. While all of the equipment manufacturers say they have cells that are rated for 60,000 pools, they are blowing smoke because they don't understand that proper chlorination requires you to produce FC well in excess of the standard mantra of 1-3ppm.

Since you will have a pool that is going to be winterized and closed every year (make sure you are considering the costs of proper winter covers in your pool build), you might be able to get away with an in-line trichlor puck chlorinator. Trichlor is another method of chlorinating swimming pool water but trichlor is stabilized chlorine which means it adds both FC and CYA. You can't add too much CYA to your water (typically 50-80ppm is the MAX you can add), so the use of trichlor pucks is typically limited and then you have to switch over to plain liquid chlorine (aka, bleach).

Sorry for the long response but hopefully it will help layout some issues early so you can do your research on this site and be armed with the right information. Remember, the pool builder just wants to build you a pool and collect his checks. Once he builds that pool, it's you responsibility to take care of it and so you want to get as much of the details correct now so later on down the road your pool is truly trouble-free.

Good luck,
Matt

 

[bmoreswim]

I can just give just give one data point for a SWCG on a pool that is 27K gallons (so about 75% of your pool volume) in full sun in MD (so much further north than TX - where much of the pool data here is from - and yet farther south than NY). During the peak of summer, my T-15 cell keeps my FC at 8 (CYA at 70) by running pump on low 15 hrs and set at 45%. This equates to about 7 hours of runtime at 100%. So based on my particular scenario only, the T-15 would be satisfy the needs of a 35K gallon pool in my backyard by running 9-10 hrs at 100%.

I have no arguments with the math discussed by others, but the northern sun angle and lower temps you will have do also play a part in the equation.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I can just give just give one data point for a SWCG on a pool that is 27K gallons (so about 75% of your pool volume) in full sun in MD (so much further north than TX - where much of the pool data here is from - and yet farther south than NY). During the peak of summer, my T-15 cell keeps my FC at 8 (CYA at 70) by running pump on low 15 hrs and set at 45%. This equates to about 7 hours of runtime at 100%. So based on my particular scenario only, the T-15 would be satisfy the needs of a 35K gallon pool in my backyard by running 9-10 hrs at 100%.

I have no arguments with the math discussed by others, but the northern sun angle and lower temps you will have do also play a part in the equation.

Agreed! Weather, sun exposure (UV) and cleanliness have huge impacts.

If I use your pool volume and numbers, I get for a T-15 cell - (6.2 ppm FC / 24 hours) x 7 hours = 1.8ppm FC / day. That comes close to what we see in most clean TFP pools, ~ 2-3ppm per day of chlorine loss. For a 35k gallon pool, you would have to run the cell harder and longer to achieve the same but it is doable. The question comes down to cell life and utility costs. NY State has some pretty expensive electricity so having to run the pumps longer will add to the overall seasonal cost of the pool. A variable speed pump would definitely be advised in this situation as it would let the pool owner achieve the lowest possible speed needed to produce chlorine.

Thanks for adding that information to the post, it helps a lot.

Matt

 

[Karen14]

Wow, Concerning the swg, would have never thought that there would be a benefit to building a pool in the north!

Bmoreswim...I just read through your built, it looks beautiful! I was very interested in this since we too have a similar slope in our yard and will need a two retaining walls.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, in a warmer climate there will be more evaporation and therefore more free chlorine is required from the swg but in cooler climates the demand is lower. Do you think I can get by with the pentair intellichlor60 with a variable pump?...thanks for your input!

Matt...thanks for all of the helpful information, this is what I need. We have had our well water tested and no lead, there is some sulfate that you can smell sometimes (we have a purifier for our house but not the outdoor water). Can the cartridge cleaning be something that the company that closes the pool does or is that just too lazy? Will it have to be done more frequently then that, I know that depends on filter size and how much debris we have but are there some general recommendations, I don't know how accurate they are or how much wiggle room there is. I'm guessing that we will have the pool open for about 4 months per year. I'd also like your opinion on the intellichlor60 with a variable pump.

Jamie...I'm so impressed with your experience, I can't wait to see how your pool turns out. I really like your tile choices.

kim...my landscaping plan is not finished yet but I'll add it when it is. Here is a picture of the yard. It will be straight out from that portion of the house visible and about halfway between the house and wood line. There is a lot of grading to be done.


Does anyone have any recommendations on number of and placement of skimmers for my pool?
~

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Matt...thanks for all of the helpful information, this is what I need. We have had our well water tested and no lead, there is some sulfate that you can smell sometimes (we have a purifier for our house but not the outdoor water). Can the cartridge cleaning be something that the company that closes the pool does or is that just too lazy? Will it have to be done more frequently then that, I know that depends on filter size and how much debris we have but are there some general recommendations, I don't know how accurate they are or how much wiggle room there is. I'm guessing that we will have the pool open for about 4 months per year. I'd also like your opinion on the intellichlor60 with a variable pump.

Hi Karen,

Love the backyard, I miss the big tree back East (I grew up on Long Island). Your pool is going to look awesome back there.

As for chemicals, it's not a matter of evaporation that controls FC level but exposure to UV and water temperature. Being in the desert southwest, I am several degrees latitude lower than you. Therefore my UV exposure is higher. Chlorine is used up by three things in water - biological critters (algae, bacteria & viruses), organic contamination (sweat, urea, etc, otherwise known as bather waste) and ultra-violet light. The more UV exposure you have, the greater the loss rate of FC. As for temperature, we start hitting the 90's here in Tucson in May and, by the height of the summer swim season outdoor temps peak to 110F. My water will be 90F just from absorbing heat alone (no need to run a pool heater). Higher temperatures means faster chemical reactions which equal more chlorine loss. So, yes, you folks up north benefit from the cooler climate (but you pay for it with pool heaters ).

A cartridge filter, if it lasted all season, could be an item on a pool closing companies check list. I think up north the pool companies like to clean the equipment and remove it for storage at their facilities. If you don't pay for that as part of the closing process, then it is often recommended you clean and store your pool equipment yourself. TFP has some very good write ups on how to properly close your pool each year but, I have to say, I'm glad I live in a part of the country where my pool never has to be closed (though no one swims when the water temps are below 78F).

I love my Pentair equipment but I will say this, if you are planning to go with a full automation system, then you should stick with one brand, i.e., all Pentair or all Hayward or all Jandy. Check with your pool builders on what equipment they use because, very often, they typically build with only one brand. Specifically speaking about Pentair, an IC60 produces 2-lbs of chlorine per day. In your 35,000 gallon pool, that's about 7ppm FC per day. That should be more than enough to keep your pool going. It seems others who live in your part of the country have good luck with their Hayward T-15's in terms of adequate chlorine output so I am now less concerned about it. Even with a salt water pool, you can always supplement with a little liquid chlorine now & then to help out with the occasional pool party (I do that all the time). The most important thing to understand about an SWG is this - it requires water flow to make it work. So, in order to generate chlorine you have to run the pump AND you have to run the pump with sufficient speed to get the correct water flow through it. If the flow is too low, it will not generate chlorine. High flow is usually not a problem as few pumps can push water fast enough to really affect the SWG output (and there are ways to deal with high flow in the plumbing design anyway). So a variable speed pump is really a nice feature to have because it allows you to have different pump speeds. You can run it really low to just skim and filter water with no chlorine production or you run it a little faster to produce chlorine or you run it REALLY FAST so you can hook up a vacuum and get good suction. That's not something that is possible with a single speed or 2-speed pump.

Keep posting your questions and design plans as we all love to play virtual PB ....

Matt

 

[needsajet]

The most important thing to remember is this - this is YOUR pool. Do not let the pool builder pressure you into doing anything "right now!" or allow him to force what he wants on you. Take your time to research all the options and get lots of advice here on TFP as the collective experience and wisdom on this site outstrips any PB's experience. Get a pool design with a spec sheet and rough plumbing/electrical layout and then, take a pause. Allow yourself time to review the plans and the specs and post them here with any questions. Your PB will want to rush you into doing things "now, now, now" because "he's a busy guy" and if you don't do what he wants "you'll lose your place on his work schedule". BULL !! This is your pool and your hard earned money therefore YOU call the shots.

+1 because we got caught up in this on our recent build. To anyone starting off, I have to heartily agree - take your time.

We needed it by Christmas (we have a hot sunny outdoor Christmas down here), and that's the builder's rush time, probably like a June deadline would be up there. We started with a landscape designer 8 months before our deadline and still ended up rushed by the PB, and struggling to catch shortcuts. One example - "where's my vacuum line?" - "those are too dangerous, we haven't done that for 20 years. It just plugs in the skimmer. That's what everybody does. blah blah blah. And the concreters are coming at 6am tomorrow - if you want your vacuum line, forget Christmas."

It's a complex project, made more complex by conflicting opinions. When you build a building, code dictates a higher % of the work. Pools (to me) feel like the Wild, Wild West of construction. And don't get me wrong, the important stuff is great. The steel, concrete and tile guys were brilliant, the stairs and ledges are perfect, there's no leaks, the pool is square, plumb and level where it has to be, the plaster/bead is consistent and beautiful, and the water is delightful.

Have fun with it! Take your time.

 

[Karen14]

I'm still processing all of this great advice but just came up with another couple of questions. Can you add automation later? Is there something that I should do during the built that needs to be done to prep for that if I choose to add it later on?

How does the distance between the pool equipment and the pool effect things (aside from the obvious extra piping)?

lastly, any advice on number of skimmers, returns and drains as well as placement recommendations?

thanks!

 

[kimkats]

It is said the skimmer is best put down wind so the stuff has help being pushed to it. With your pool being L shaped I wonder if 2 skimmers would be best for your pool. One in the deep end and one in the play area.

Returns-at least 6-one pointed at the steps (where the top of the "foot" is) to help keep the steps clean. One on the "bottom" of the foot, one at the "heel", 2 on the "back of the leg", one on the "shin". I hope you understand what I mean.

Kim

 

[Karen14]

It is said the skimmer is best put down wind so the stuff has help being pushed to it. With your pool being L shaped I wonder if 2 skimmers would be best for your pool. One in the deep end and one in the play area.

Returns-at least 6-one pointed at the steps (where the top of the "foot" is) to help keep the steps clean. One on the "bottom" of the foot, one at the "heel", 2 on the "back of the leg", one on the "shin". I hope you understand what I mean.

Kim

Kim thanks...This is exactly what the PB confirmed today and two drains (that will be tied together) in the deep end.

So the PB got the official volume calculation of our pool at 25,684 gallons. When doing the L x W x D x 7.2 calculations I had gotten much higher as many of you calculated as well but in breaking the pool down into many geometric shapes (to account for the slope into the deep end and the slope on the walls of the deep end...thank you high school geometry!) my calculations were fairly close to the engineered calculation. So about 26,000 gallons it is.

My pool builder recommends the Hayward S224T sand filter (but I don't think that this is sufficient) with the Hayward 1.5hp superpump. I would rather go with a variable speed pump like most people suggest but my PB says that when his clients have requested those they tend to break down more often and the cost savings is gone due to repairs???? He also recommends the T-15 aquarite swg which I guess would be fine with a 26,000 gallon pool. He is fine with us selecting what we want so I'd love to hear suggestions. It seems as though pentair may be a more desired brand to some and if we should get the intellichlor-60 it may make sense to do all pentair. I don't know.... I'm also getting a bit hesistant about a cartridge filter because it seems like it may be more maintenance that I would like although I like the better filtration that it can do vs. the sand. Lastly, my PB uses 1.5 in pipes, it seems like 2 in pipes is the way to go with the newest pumps but is that overkill? He says that he would use 2in where they come together but 1.5 in where they are separate.

Thanks,
Karen

Thanks

 

[JoyfulNoise]

A single speed pump makes no sense with an SWG (or from an energy consumption standpoint for that matter). There are even States (FL & CA I believe) that ban single speed pump on all new pool builds.

Here are my thoughts -

Go with one brand or the other, don't mix & match. Hayward and Pentair are like Ford and Chevy.

2" piping should be your minimum on all sides and when connecting to equipment.

Get a VSP pump. His claim that they break down is bogus. The newest models from Pentair and Hayward are very reliable as many here will attest to. NY has some of the highest utility rates in the nation, you want the VSP. All you need to do with a VSP is ensure the electrician adds a surge protector at the pump equipment panel to protect your equipment against lightening strikes.

Cartridge versus sand....hard call. Cartridge will not waste as much water with backwashing. If you get the largest cartridge possible you can likely go the entire swim season with just one cleaning. As for performance, many sand filter owners are very happy with their water clarity. Unless you swim a lot at night I'm not sure you'll see the difference.

Good luck,

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

 

[Karen14]

So, I've been reading through many posts here and learning as much as I can about water chemistry, water hydraulics and pool equipment. Now that my kids are back in school I have time to revisit all of this. My PB is very flexible. He is open to me using any equipment that I would like (of course I have to pay the difference ) That being said, he deals with Hayward and offers the best warranty if we choose that brand so it makes sense to me since I don't really have a preference at this point. So with a 26,000 gal pool in upstate NY this is what I have come up with. We will have 2 skimmers, 6 returns and 2 drains (that are tied together?)

• Hayward ecostar pump (upgrade from his standard 1.5hp superpump)
• Hayward sand filter (upgrade from S240) either the:
  • S310 design flow rate 98 gpm, 8 hours turnover 47,040 gal.
  • S311SXV design flow rate 99 gpm, 8 hour turnover 47,520 gal.
  • S360sx design flow rate 130 gpm, 8 hour turnover 62,400 gal.
    • I'm not sure what the difference is between the pro series and the pro plus
• Hayward aquarite T15
• Hayward 300K BTU heater H300FDN
• We are also upgrading to 2" tubing throughout.

Please let me know what you think. I was getting confused with the max flow rate of the pump and it damaging the sand filter. I'm not sure I need the S360 sand filter. I seems that I only need it if we run the pump on its max speed which may not even be advisable with the tubing that we will have.

Also, we are considering automation. My understanding is to go with the omnilogic system but, that restricts us to either the ecostar or the tristar but if we choose the tristar then we need to do that automation up front. It is a ($1600) to add the automation now through the builder however I have seen the base for the system online for just over $400 so I'm a bit confused about what I need for the system and what we are paying for from the builder. I chose the ecostar so that we did not have to choose upfront about the automation because it functions with or without it. The tristar requires knowing that upfront. Is there a lot of labor involved in connecting the omnilogic to all of the components? or is that something the electrician can do?

Thanks!

 

[Nectarologist]

Hi Karen,

My yard also has a slope and we had to address this so we didn't have a ledge for people to fall off of. It was 3 feet at the tallest and gradually sloped down. I thought I'd need to do a retaining wall but the landscaper suggested otherwise. We essentially turned the straight drop into a hill and landscaped it. I'll post pictures in the next day or two if you're interested.