New Plaster Build, High Acid Demand

[thegizzard]

I can guess, but I wonder why the pool store never mentioned baking soda to increase TA.

Whenever I go the pool store to pickup Muriatic Acid, I bring in my water for a test. I do this mostly out of curiosity and to confirm my own taylor kit measurements.

They have all sort of products to adjust a number of things, but nothing recommended to increase TA (my TA was 35 at the time).

Does anyone know why that is?

BTW: All I purchase from them is MA and 12.5% Bleach.

 

[wireform]

The real answer is because they DON'T KNOW.

 

[kul]

Maybe they recognize you already know how to take care of your pool so they don’t try to upsell you past your typical MA/chlorine purchase.
I recently used baking soda to increase my TA and it worked perfectly. I love this site so much! What a savings!

 

[ajw22]

What did your TA test with your TF-100?

TA - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Chemicals suggested for raising TA. Their effects are:

• Baking Soda = big TA change, small pH change
• Borax = big pH change, small TA change
• Soda Ash/Washing Soda = big pH change, big TA change.

 

[thegizzard]

What did your TA test with your TF-100?

TA - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Chemicals suggested for raising TA. Their effects are:

• Baking Soda = big TA change, small pH change
• Borax = big pH change, small TA change
• Soda Ash/Washing Soda = big pH change, big TA change.

I tested TA = 30 with my kit. So I knew I needed baking soda to raise it (which I have done), I just thought it was strange the Pool store did not mention it.
BTW: I am on day 17 of a new stonescapes startup, their suggested TA = 80 -120. I am following their 30 day guide before switching to the pool math recommended levels.
My current levels:
FC=2, PH = 7.5, TA = 80, CH = 165 (pool store), CYA = 5 (ignoring that for now), CSI = -.50

 

[Donldson]

The pool store is giving you bad advice because you are allowing them to test your water.

Stop allowing them to test your water and their bad advice will stop.

 

[aussieta]

try allowing your ph to be a little higher 7.9?
this will reduce your need for acid, which will reduce your need for bicarb

 

[thegizzard]

try allowing your ph to be a little higher 7.9?
this will reduce your need for acid, which will reduce your need for bicarb

I have an acid pump so adding acid is not problem. The pool is brand new and my ph rises to 8.2 without about 30 ounces of Acid daily. Once I am done with the startup (30 days) I will see if higher ph is more stable.

 

[thegizzard]

The pool store is giving you bad advice because you are allowing them to test your water.

Stop allowing them to test your water and their bad advice will stop.

I hear that. I am very new to this so I wanted to confirm my taylor measurements. Its close enough now that I think I am good.

 

[thegizzard]

Hello Friends. Mine is a 17 day old pebble pool, so I am not alarmed by rising pH. My question is if 30 oz of MA daily is typical or acceptable. I am using an acid pump and through trial and error I have determined that 30 oz of MA will reduce the pH from 8.2 (or higher, each morning) to 7.5 which the pool builder recommends for weeks 3 and 4 of a new pool.

It also appears that my TA is slowly going down as well.. which is what prompted me to ask this question. Yesterday my TA was at 80, this morning it is at 70. I recently raised the TA from 30 to 80 with Baking Soda. The pool builder recommends TA 80 - 120 during this period.

My question, should I raise my TA to try to slow the acid demand? TA = 80 had not affect on acid demand. Should I try and raise it to 100? Am I correct that increased TA should reduce acid demand?

Alternatively, I can do nothing and see how it goes. By nothing, I mean raise the TA back to 80 and continue to manage the pH level with as much MA is needed.

My levels as of this morning:

FC = 2, pH = 7.5, TA = 70, CH = 250, CYA = 5 (not measured for some time), CSI = -.40

 

[proavia]

Raising the TA will cause the pH to rise even faster.
Do what the PB suggests for the first 30 days or so. After that, if pH rise is an issue, reduce your TA to 60.

Are you using PoolMath ? If so, share your logs here. There is a setting to allow sharing your logs - as long as your PoolMath and forum sign-in information is the same.

 

[thegizzard]

Thanks. Below are my logs... You will see some of these measurements are from the Pool Store... as described above ... I will stop testing there. The rest are with my TF-100 Kit.

==========================================
Gizzardious Pool
------------------------------------------
Build Type: Plaster
Volume: 19300 gallons
------------------------------------------
Latest Test Result Summary:
FC: 2.0 (yesterday)
pH: 7.5 (9 hours ago)
TA: 70 (9 hours ago)
CH: 250 (9 hours ago)
CYA: 5 (2 days ago)
SALT: 172 (5 days ago)
TEMPERATURE: 50° (14 days ago)
CSI: -0.40 (9 hours ago)
==========================================
------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-29-2021 @ 07:24 AM
------------------------------------------
pH: 7.5
Total Alkalinity: 70
Calcium Hardness: 250
CSI: -0.40

------------------------------------------
Chemical Addition 12-29-2021 @ 03:29 AM
------------------------------------------
+ 31 FluidOunces of Baume31

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-28-2021 @ 12:14 PM
------------------------------------------
Free Chlorine: 2.0
pH: 7.5
Total Alkalinity: 80
CSI: -0.50

------------------------------------------
Chemical Addition 12-28-2021 @ 10:59 AM
------------------------------------------
+ 30.78 FluidOunces of Baume31

------------------------------------------
Chemical Addition 12-28-2021 @ 09:51 AM
------------------------------------------
+ 49 FluidOunces of Bleach

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-28-2021 @ 08:44 AM
------------------------------------------
Free Chlorine: 0.5
pH: 8.2
CSI: 0.27

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-27-2021 @ 12:32 PM
------------------------------------------
Free Chlorine: 0.8
pH: 7.6
Total Alkalinity: 94
Calcium Hardness: 165
CYA: 5
CSI: -0.33

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-27-2021 @ 11:23 AM
------------------------------------------
pH: 7.6
Total Alkalinity: 80
Calcium Hardness: 250
CSI: -0.25

------------------------------------------
Chemical Addition 12-27-2021 @ 09:28 AM
------------------------------------------
+ 23.76 FluidOunces of Baume31

------------------------------------------
Chemical Addition 12-27-2021 @ 09:01 AM
------------------------------------------
+ 40 Ounces of BakingSoda

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-27-2021 @ 07:39 AM
------------------------------------------
Free Chlorine: 2.0
pH: 8.2
Total Alkalinity: 70
CSI: 0.29

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-26-2021 @ 02:08 PM
------------------------------------------
pH: 7.6
Total Alkalinity: 70
CSI: -0.30

------------------------------------------
Chemical Addition 12-26-2021 @ 11:34 AM
------------------------------------------
+ 13.5 Pounds of BakingSoda

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-26-2021 @ 11:20 AM
------------------------------------------
pH: 7.8
Total Alkalinity: 30
CSI: -0.48

------------------------------------------
Chemical Addition 12-26-2021 @ 09:41 AM
------------------------------------------
+ 3.78 FluidOunces of Baume31

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-26-2021 @ 09:06 AM
------------------------------------------
Free Chlorine: 2.0
pH: 7.8
Total Alkalinity: 10
Calcium Hardness: 250
CSI: -1.01

------------------------------------------
Chemical Addition 12-25-2021 @ 01:40 PM
------------------------------------------
+ 30 FluidOunces of Bleach

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-25-2021 @ 09:21 AM
------------------------------------------
Free Chlorine: 1.0
pH: 7.2
CSI: -1.29

------------------------------------------
Test Results 12-24-2021 @ 08:59 AM
------------------------------------------
Free Chlorine: 1.4
pH: 6.8
Total Alkalinity: 26
Calcium Hardness: 165
CYA: 5
Salt: 172
CSI: -1.68

 

[Newdude]

Hey Gizz !!!
To answer your original question, baking soda is $6.99 at BJs/Costco for 13 lbs. (53 cents a lb). ‘Alkilinity Increaser’ at the pool store is $32.99 for 10lbs. ($3.29 a lb).

Why would they send you off without fleecing you first ?

You will see some of these measurements are from the Pool Store... as described above ... I will stop testing there

Get a K-1766 test for the salt to get your baseline (reliably) and add salt when it’s approved per PoolMath. Undershoot the target by 20% to allow some wiggle room. It’s better to have to add again, and even a third time than having to drain almost new water. Brush around what doesn’t dissolve after 30 or so minutes and let it mix for a full 24 hours before verifying and turning on the SWG if you hit the target.

In the meantime, use poolmath to get your CYA up. This is the only time you know it’s 0. Maybe the 5 is right if they used any pucks, but you can’t read it under 20 so it’s unreliable at best. Under shoot here also as it can also only come out (quickly) by draining. Fill a sock and suspend it in front of a return. Give it some hours to soak (even a day) and it will squish out effortlessly.

Raise the FC with liquid chlorine (no scents / splash less or ‘color max technologies) per PoolMath following the FC/CYA Levels

 

[thegizzard]

In the meantime, use poolmath to get your CYA up. This is the only time you know it’s 0. Maybe the 5 is right if they used any pucks, but you can’t read it under 20 so it’s unreliable at best. Under shoot here also as it can also only come out (quickly) by draining. Fill a sock and suspend it in front of a return. Give it some hours to soak (even a day) and it will squish out effortlessly.

This comment made me realize that I did not send you the full history. Below is the link to my full history. I made some corrections.

PoolMath Logs

I have been using Liquid Chlorine 12.5%. MA 31.5%, I did put one gallon of Instant Pool Water conditioner before my PB said not to worry about CYA for now. I also used Hardness Plus for CH.

No pucks. and 3oz of Magenta Stuff once a week as advised by the PB.

 

[Newdude]

made some corrections.

PoolMath Logs

PB said not to worry about CYA for now

Most of ‘the industry’ doesn’t believe in the FC/CYa relationship. But without any CYA, The UV from the sun will eat any FC you add in no time. It’s not terrible right now so late in the season, but still. You’ll want the CYA to be 30 to protect/buffer whatever you add for the winter. Once the season gets going you’ll want it at 70 for the SWG as it adds FC so slowly and won’t spike 4FC instantly like bleach does. Other wise you spin your wheels producing a small amount and losing it to the sun just as quick.

No pucks

So if nothing with CYA has been added, it’s zero. Like I said above, with sketchy results at 20 or under, this is the only time you know you baseline for sure. In the spring it may be 3 or 19 and both kinda sorta look like 20. You can go ahead and add for 0-30. It won’t harm anything until the PB decides it’s time for CYA, just make sure he knows it’s already good. Some of them just dump without testing first.

 

[mknauss]

one gallon of Instant Pool Water conditioner

That is CYA. Be sure to account for that.

For your pool volume - that added 20 ppm CYA.

 

[thegizzard]

That is CYA. Be sure to account for that.

For your pool volume - that added 20 ppm CYA.

Yep. That’s what I meant to clarify. I added 1 gallon of CYA (instant conditioner)

 

[Newdude]

Yep. That’s what I meant to clarify. I added 1 gallon of CYA (instant conditioner)

Nice catch that I didn’t

Did you get it all out of the jug or was there some sludge at the bottom ? That’s the bulk of the CYA so it’s real tricky for folks not adding the whole gallon, or a bit of a chore to swish out the residuals for those using the whole gallon.

Going forward switch to granular and it’s easier to hit your target if your volume is close enough. When buying, steer clear of any additives and look for 100% Cyanuric acid on the label. WalMart and Home Depot/Lowes probably have it most of the year in NC as well as the pool stores.

 

[thegizzard]

Did you get it all out of the jug or was there some sludge at the bottom ? That’s the bulk of the CYA so it’s real tricky for folks not adding the whole gallon, or a bit of a chore to swish out the residuals for those using the whole gallon.

Going forward switch to granular and it’s easier to hit your target if your volume is close enough. When buying, steer clear of any additives and look for 100% Cyanuric acid on the label. WalMart and Home Depot/Lowes probably have it most of the year in NC as well as the pool stores.

Really good point. I was suprised at how thick that stuff was, they really stretched the definition of liquid with that. It pretty much sunk to the bottom of the pool and I had to brush it to dissolve it. Very good chance I did not get everything in the bottom of the jug.

I originally bought 2 gallons of that. So I have a second gallon waiting to go in. Pool Math says that second gallon will only get me to CYA = 24. Given the 30-50 target (from the PB for the next 2 weeks) is it ok to put that entire second gallon in? If I end up less than 30, I can use granular to try and get in range from there.

 

[Newdude]

So I have a second gallon waiting to go in. Pool Math says that second gallon will only get me to CYA = 24

Yup. You have it so that’s half the battle. If anything (this time) you will undershoot which is always preferable. Down the road you may only need 1/4 gallon and that’s where it gets tricky when not enough or too much sludge comes out. It might take a few rounds of refilling the bottle halfway and swishing to get it all.

When you get granular, the bag will say to add it directly to the skimmer. Don’t do that. It’s acid and you don’t want it going through the equipment many times over the years. Fill a sock / shirt / knee high / etc and suspend it in front of a return. After it soaks for a while it will squish out. I have a tendency to over check things so knowing that I let mine soak for a full day instead of checking it every 30 mins. Some was already gone and the rest went *poof* effortlessly.