New Hayward VSP pump sounds like its getting air into it (video)

[JamesW]

You could also change the actuators to pull from the spa to see if that makes a difference by going to Spa mode.

However, if there is an obstruction in the valve, it might damage the valve and actuator due to the obstruction.

 

[bradgray]

In my opinion, it is almost definitely a suction side blockage.

A return side blockage will just be steady and not pulsing.

Can you expound on why you say this? I'm interested in the context.

I've had at least 3 hayward systems behave exactly like this with confirmed pressure side issues.

One was a repair-only client who had deadheaded his pump by installing a check valve backwards and the other 2 were hamburgered filters from monsoonal mud.

No other changes made other than correcting the above, and issue resolved.

In my experience suction side leaks seems to cause a struggle to prime, or a large air gap in the pot as opposed to a sort of water hammer that you'd see pressurized system when a solenoid suddenly slams shut. With the deadheaded wall of water acting as the dam causing the pump to rev and then recoil over and over.

 

[bradgray]

You have 2 check valves and in my opinion, you do not need either.

The pump should catch prime in any case, so I would eliminate the check valve.

I agree 2 is redundant.

But having at least one CV before the pump can help his pump prime faster when he cleans the basket and/or filters, since his equipment is 3 - 4 ft above the pool.

 

[JamesW]

My observation is that a return obstruction will usually just be high steady pressure.

Maybe at 100% blockage, it will pulse like that.

If there is any water returning to the pool, then I don't think it would be a return blockage, especially if there is a strong return.

A suction blockage will cavitate causing a surge.

@golovko can check for water coming from the returns.

 

[JamesW]

But having at least one CV before the pump can help his pump hold prime when he cleans the basket and/or filters, since his equipment is 3 - 4 ft above the pool.

He can change the check valve in front of the pump to a regular valve by removing the internal parts and lid and putting in valve parts and lid and close the valve for service.

A check valve after the pump will hold prime when the pump is off but the lid is still on.

Check valves in front of the pump add too much head loss and they tend to catch debris.

If you put a check valve after the pump, the head loss is not a problem and the debris is strained by the pump basket.

https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/literature/PSV-ValvesSpecSheet.pdf

Diverter & Check Valves | White Goods | In Ground Pool White Goods - Hayward Pool Products

Hayward PSV Series check valves and 2-way/3-way diverter valves make water flow management simple and maintenance free. Durable CPVC & PVC bodies with multiple port configurations and sizes accommodate most applications.

www.hayward-pool.com

 

[bradgray]

He can change the check valve in front of the pump to a regular valve by removing the internal parts and lid and putting in valve parts and lid and close the valve for service.

A check valve after the pump will hold prime when the pump is off but the lid is still on.

Check valves in front of the pump add too much head loss and they tend to catch debris.

If you put a check valve after the pump, the head loss is not a problem and the debris is strained by the pump basket.

I definitely like this setup more than a CV in front of the pump.

OP doesn't have any easy room after the pump though so using that waste diverter in the same manner would be an easy alternative.

 

[JamesW]

I would cut out this anode (red lines) and install a check valve there.

A fast and easy check for a return blockage would be to open the Three-way valve (red arrow) so that the waste line is open.

Roll out the blue hose first and make sure it is not kinked.

If it is a return blockage, the open waste line will relieve the pressure.

 

[JamesW]

The fastest and easiest way to check for a suction blockage would be to switch the suction valve to the spa suction line and that will eliminate the pool suction.

However, a rock or something in the three way valve would damage the valve and actuator because the valve would be trying to turn while the diverter was blocked by the rock.

If you turn the actuator, watch to see if it moves smoothly or if it jams and stops part way.

That would still leave the check valve directly in front of the pump.

You can remove the clear check valve lid to see if anything is in the check valve.

 

[JamesW]

For the time being I've reduced the pump down to 75% instead of 90% during the day to minimize the noise and potential damage to the pump.

That's a powerful pump, you should never need more than 50% (1,725 RPM) at any time and you can probably do about 30% to 40% for daily operation.

Percent......RPM
100.............3,450
90...............3,105
80...............2,760
70...............2,415
60...............2,070
50...............1,725
40...............1,380
30...............1,035
20..................690
10..................345

 

[JamesW]

At 40% (1,380 RPM), you should still get at least 40 gpm, which is more than enough for two skimmers and I would close the Main Drain down to about 90% closed/10% open.

 

[golovko]

Not sure if this factors into it but I have kept my pool/spa open through winter. Mainly because it's our first winter with the pool and we use the spa often. The pool is about 20,000 gallons.

The pool builder had originally setup the system to run at these high speeds which may just be attributed to it being a new pool and wanting to filter the construction debris and plaster. Running at the lower speeds is much quieter normally (prior to this issue) so that will be a welcome change.

One thing I may not have mentioned earlier is that this just suddenly started happening randomly. The day prior the pool maintenance guy was here cleaning the pool, filters, checking water chemistry etc. I believe the next day or two it started having this issue. I will check for any blockage tomorrow as well.

 

[JamesW]

The day prior the pool maintenance guy was here cleaning the pool, filters, checking water chemistry etc.

Have you contacted the builder and the service person?

What do they have to say?

In my opinion, the service person should show up within 24 hours of your call to figure this out.

If they can't show up, or figure this out, they are probably not worth keeping.

 

[golovko]

Have you contacted the builder and the service person?

What do they have to say?

In my opinion, the service person should show up within 24 hours of your call to figure this out.

If they can't show up, or figure this out, they are probably not worth keeping.

I called them earlier in the week and left a message to the service admin. She usually calls back in a day or two unless she's on vacation. They've been really responsive with me and they're also the same company handling the weekly maintenance.

I went out and switched the valve over to waste and let it run at 90% for a couple minutes. Almost immediately I noticed a change. The primer (not sure if thats what it is called, video below) was full to the very top right under the clear lid. No bubbles or air pocket as there was previously. I switched back and turned off the waste valve to run the water back through the filter. Run normally, no air pocket in the primer, no weird noises anymore even at 90% (turned it back down after 10 minutes). I did notice some additional debris in the primer basket that I must assume was lodged in one of the check valves. The flappers on those opened all the way when I first switched it to waste.

(Just took this now)

Better photos of the equipment pad:

 

[JamesW]

I suspect that there was a clog in the suction, or maybe the impeller, and it got dislodged by the extra flow.

The return head loss is about 58 feet.

I would estimate the flow at about 85 to 90 gpm.

I would turn down the speed a lot to just enough to keep the SWG flow switch closed and maybe about 10% extra for margin.

30% to 40% is probably plenty.

More than that is just wasting energy for no reason.

 

[JamesW]

Does it run ok in Spa mode?

 

[JamesW]

It still seems to have too much noise.

Does it seems too noisy to you?

 

[JamesW]

I did notice some additional debris in the primer basket that I must assume was lodged in one of the check valves.

A few small leaves won't clog the line.

How much did you find in the pump basket?

If something was dislodged, it should be in the basket.

Maybe there is still something in the line like maybe a chunk of plaster , rock, stick, pine cone etc?

 

[golovko]

Does it run ok in Spa mode?

Haven't tested spa mode yet, had to run errands all day after I tested things earlier today. Will try that next

 

[golovko]

It still seems to have too much noise.

Does it seems too noisy to you?

The noise level is the same as it was before the issue started, however, when I compare it to the replacement pump that was replaced maybe a month or so ago for the bubblers, its much louder when running at the same speed. I wonder if this pump just wasn't in the best shape when they installed it.

 

[golovko]

A few small leaves won't clog the line.

How much did you find in the pump basket?

If something was dislodged, it should be in the basket.

Maybe there is still something in the line like maybe a chunk of plaster , rock, stick, pine cone etc?

I'll check it again tomorrow. I didn't want to open it up again after I saw everything working fine again. But from what I could see it seemed like small/medium sized leaves. Maybe there is a pebble or some plaster stuck and it just dislodged but remained in the piping.