New fiberglass pool build in OBX- Current stage Fence and Landscape.

[Saturn94]

3 around the pool will be Windmill palms. Younger ones, average hight 3-5' to start is what i'm told.

One in the circle of the drive will be a European Fan palm. This one will be interesting as I want one thats more mature, id like it to be 10 feet minimum at installation as they only grow 6" a year at most. But they say it can withstand as low as 5 degrees. Our climate isn't terribly severe in winter, but we do have short cold snaps in December/January. It actually snowed last winter, nothing stuck, but it precipitated. Our average temps are normally in the 50s in the winter (dec, jan, feb). This might change depending on availability. But the windmill palms are easy to get.

We planted a couple Windmill Palms by the pool in 2005. They’ve done very well here (coastal SE VA/Hampton Roads area). They were 2-3ft when planted and are about 20ft now.

Here’s a couple pics of one of them; one taken in 2012 and the other 2019

I expect you shouldn’t have trouble with them surviving OBX winters.

 

[Saturn94]

Oh, and no problem in the snow (2014).

 

[dleonard1122]

Anybody with more recent experience with pavers have a ballpark pricing? I get this will vary greatly depending on area but just curious. Thanks!

I just got 3 quotes for pavers around our pool and excluding the coping, they were all $22-$24 per square foot for a 1,250 sqft job in southern NJ.

 

[Newdude]

I am having pavers go in over concrete for $16 a foot. My patio guy said that cement patios are expensive for all the labor that goes into prepping the base to minimize the cracking. Traditional pavers are expensive for the same labor to ensure they don't settle.

So what many of them have been doing here is laying a slab and throwing pavers on top. (I'll know for sure when they pull the forms but it looks like they used 2X6 forms so it should be 5.5 inches). It won't settle but it will likely have unsightly cracks that nobody can see under the pavers and polymeric sand.

Also, the pavers had several upsell choices. Certain colors and shapes added alot to the price. We went with the cheaper 3 piece kit with a big square, a little square and a rectangle. Just like the pool, I wanted more patio instead of a fancier one.

 

[Wolfepack88]

Also a very new thing is putting a tongue and groove insulated board under the pavers which supposedly minimizes freeze thaw. I didn't have that on my pavers around my fiberglass pool last year but a contractor we know very well was telling me how that is changing how they do pavers. I'm not sure how that works because the frost line is the frost line and the insulated board isn't 36" thick so I'm not sure I understand the benefit but I don't do that stuff for a living.

 

[Newdude]

I'm not sure how that works because the frost line is the frost line and the insulated board isn't 36" thick so I'm not sure I understand the benefit

The insulating board helps keep the ground warmer than the air. There's a never ending supply of 55 degree dirt just a couple feet down. The frost line is for extreme winters. Many years it doesnt get that far, or get the that far for very long. (For most of us, at least) I could see it making a huge difference and now that you mention it, a Canadian member had theirs done that way last year.

 

[TX2OBX]

Ive seen insulation used below slabs in areas that get really cold. I can't see the need for it here when we basically never get below freezing long. My heat pumps have never even kicked on "aux" heat to keep the house warm in the winter. Based on the stack of bills/estimates I got in my email I might be sticking with my concrete bid lol. Nothing from PB too unexpected but the everything else is all about 20% more than expected (landscaping, new steps and deck, etc), plus a big fat 20k change order on my pier since HOA is making me move it over to the north about 20 feet, meaning we can't reuse part of the existing pier and have to build the entire thing from scratch.

So quick question on my contract. More looking for advise. in reference to the earlier issue I had, I got the list of changes and credits from the PB and, in a nut shell its not bad. The extras amount to less than 2400 bucks (after credits for work not done or options left out). But im being charged an additional 1900 for the lights with his explanation they were "inadvertently" left off the pricing of the bid. Yet they are in my contract. I can live with 2400 extra, but do I keep the peace and let this slide or should I make an issue? We still have other changes ahead that im not sure how much they will cost.

 

[kimkats]

Me I would point out they were in the contract. He will come back to show how they were not priced out though. ARE they priced out anywhere in the contract. Wait..................do you have line by line pricing? If not then the lights should be already worked into the quote per the contract so.............

 

[Newdude]

I believe you are entirely in the right and he can go scratch. If you need him to do anything else beyond the contract, the price just went up $1900 to do so.

And he might not be in the best mood while finishing the parts of the job that *are* priced out and in the contract.

 

[TX2OBX]

Me I would point out they were in the contract. He will come back to show how they were not priced out though. ARE they priced out anywhere in the contract. Wait..................do you have line by line pricing? If not then the lights should be already worked into the quote per the contract so.............

Pricing is not line by line. The contract lists everything we talked about and then a final price. Which is why im growing frustrated. Changes not on the contract I understand, even if it makes me a little anxious to approve changes before knowing the cost. But I base these changes (many others just off top of my head examples) on the price I expected to pay to begin with and it throws off my numbers when all of a sudden thats not included, I approved 5k of overages based on 105K (plus nc tax, roughly 113k) for this pool, not 105k plus all the things he forgot, deck jets are also still an issue. I may end up leaving those off just to not have an argument about it. From what I have read they are noisy and aren't used much anyway after the novelty wears off.

115k was set aside for the pool as his quote was 112,xxx. But the number grows each time he comes out, does work, realizes something is beyond his skill set and then boom change, which means im eating into cash reserves to cover the difference and every time he opens his mouth I have to dig deeper into those reserves that I had earmarked for other projects and toys. Which bugs me. Especially since its due to his lack of preparation/knowledge on this project. But I feel somewhat trapped in voicing these frustrations as I wouldn't put it past him to just walk off and leave me with a mess, and still demand the money. He seems to be doing a good job on the basic pool part of it. But I honestly wished I had gone with a more experienced builder even if it meant waiting another year or so to start. Live and learn.

 

[TX2OBX]

I believe you are entirely in the right and he can go scratch. If you need him to do anything else beyond the contract, the price just went up $1900 to do so.

And he might not be in the best mood while finishing the parts of the job that *are* priced out and in the contract.

I believe you're Correct, unfortunately, and we do have other changes I haven't gotten a price for yet. Deck drainage is one of those. Which is also frustrating as the drainage around the pool is also in the contract (3" track drainage imbedded in concrete). What we added was by his own doing of asking me to ask the roofers to move the gutter down spouts so they didn't drain onto the pool deck. But now they need drainage so theyre not dumping right next to the house. So it will be an additional fee to tie in the gutters to the pool deck drainage. I can live with that but saying none of the drainage was included is also a "hold up" moment.

 

[ajw22]

You should ask your PB when the Fixed Price contract morphed into a Time and Materials contract? Probably when he realized he was not making the margin he expected.

Or does the PB think he is now working with a Cost plus contract structure?

These are the “contract“ games companies big and small play. At the end you need to determine how much profit or loss there is in the work, how much margin you want to leave him, and what relationship you want at the end.

You can make your project very profitable for him, barely profitable, or money losing.

I am always keeping an eye on where the margin is and keeping contracts profitable for the company but in check.

Most residential consumers do not know how to play the contract games and businesses take advantage of that. As the customer you have to set the tone early for how you will manage the contract and inevitable changes.

 

[Newdude]

Hang in there man. Drainage is rarely a PBs concern. To me it should be one of their first concerns, but we see it time and time again that everything is great until months/years later when a big storm hits. It took 5 years at my old place to have a big enough storm and the PB was long gone by then. This time I was there with the excavator and listened to his thoughts about pool height, then added a couple of inches to that to ensure we could pitch the area between the house and pool correctly. The PB had zero to do with any of it. If the excavator was a newer operator, or one who only dug holes, I would have been entirely on my own and I don't design drainage for a living.

 

[kimkats]

Pricing is not line by line. The contract lists everything we talked about and then a final price.

I would point this one out. See how he reacts and go from there.

 

[kimkats]

Oh and I would skip the deck jets. We have a FUN way to make one and attach it to your return! It is even better than deck jets in my eyes!

 

[Newdude]

+1. You're on the water. You just KNOW the days you have get togethers will be windy and your deck jets will water the lawn and not the pool. 5 minutes into misting the general area, you'll turn them off.

Build your own with some fittings and PVC pipe that screws onto a return (s) if the urge arises and the weather is cooperating.

 

[TX2OBX]

You should ask your PB when the Fixed Price contract morphed into a Time and Materials contract? Probably when he realized he was not making the margin he expected.

Or does the PB think he is now working with a Cost plus contract structure?

These are the “contract“ games companies big and small play. At the end you need to determine how much profit or loss there is in the work, how much margin you want to leave him, and what relationship you want at the end.

You can make your project very profitable for him, barely profitable, or money losing.

I am always keeping an eye on where the margin is and keeping contracts profitable for the company but in check.

Most residential consumers do not know how to play the contract games and businesses take advantage of that. As the customer you have to set the tone early for how you will manage the contract and inevitable changes.

Good advice. Egos are in play too, mainly mine. I have to take a deep breath, enjoy a cup of coffee and not let a few grand spoil this whole thing. Even though technically I should be getting everything, I want to be reasonable enough to not make this issue a whole lot bigger (ie being left with a hole in the ground nobody will touch to finish) I just dont like getting screwed, and theres a lot of that going around these days. So Ive been trying to figure out exactly what I can live with before I talk to him.

Hang in there man. Drainage is rarely a PBs concern. To me it should be one of their first concerns, but we see it time and time again that everything is great until months/years later when a big storm hits. It took 5 years at my old place to have a big enough storm and the PB was long gone by then. This time I was there with the excavator and listened to his thoughts about pool height, then added a couple of inches to that to ensure we could pitch the area between the house and pool correctly. The PB had zero to do with any of it. If the excavator was a newer operator, or one who only dug holes, I would have been entirely on my own and I don't design drainage for a living.

I was a little surprised when he brought it up, but he did on like day 1 of walking the property with me. I hadn't put much thought into it until I experienced my first sideways rain for 3 days nor' easter. I get why people think about it here so seriously. The metal roof doesn't help this as the water sheets off super fast compared to the old asphalt roof.

But I dont think he is actually doing it, other than maybe digging the trenches for the runoff. The pool deck will be done by a sub I am paying directly that was arranged by him. Same crew that did the wall and will also being doing the new steps off the balcony and the wooden "observation" deck as well.

Oh and I would skip the deck jets. We have a FUN way to make one and attach it to your return! It is even better than deck jets in my eyes!

+1. You're on the water. You just KNOW the days you have get togethers will be windy and your deck jets will water the lawn and not the pool. 5 minutes into misting the general area, you'll turn them off.

Build your own with some fittings and PVC pipe that screws onto a return (s) if the urge arises and the weather is cooperating.

Unless he can do it for a reasonable clearly spelled out no BS price, I am all for getting rid of them. I think he might be relieved not to have to deal with them. So it might be a negotiation tactic. I only spent a couple hundred bucks for them. Once I couldn't get the laminar fountains these were a "booby" prize anyway.


But that is going to be my goal, before I cut the next draw check I want a rock solid price for all the things he didn't include just so I can get a handle on where we are and let him know he doesn't have a blank check here to finish. Because I certainly dont have one to write lol.


They're here working now, big boss PB included. Supposedly equipment is supposed to start getting installed today. But Im going to wait for him to want to talk to me. Im sure he will before he heads out to his next job site to collect a check.


Thanks all for the words of encouragement and advice. Really helps me gather thoughts to make a clear decision and not react in a way I will regret.

 

[ajw22]

Contractors like to give you a list of what they will deliver with a bottom line price and no itemized breakdown. They know prices can be looked up on the net and don't want to have the discussion of why you charging me this or that.

When I get that I tell them either give me a line item breakdown of costs and we are in this together and I know you have to eat so I will see you make money on the job.

Or I pin down exactly what they will deliver in terms of product and quality for a fixed price and it is all on them to deliver it.

Don't let your contractor get the best of both worlds. Draw a line on what has been done and what has been paid and get him to agree on how you will work together on the remaining work and payments.

 

[TX2OBX]

Split the difference on the lights (well almost, threw him a grand) Time and materials on the drainage, waiting on an estimate for this before writing the next draw check. But they are going to fix the broken lines for the outdoor shower and water line to the pier (just 1/2" pex so not a huge deal) Not overjoyed but at least I got "something" lol. He also "forgot" to include the autofill, but is throwing that in as the waterline from the house is literally 2 feet away from the pool lol. Not like they have to do much to install this. Hopefully can talk him into hooking a line into the French drain literally right behind it for overflow. All in all things are ok. Am I overjoyed, no but it keeps things moving and I dont Tick anybody off. Hopefully the rest of this thread is full of progress pics.

 

[ajw22]

You have a backflow preventer on the autofill line?

Back Flow Preventer - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com