New Build - To Automate or Not to Automate

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sngencarelli

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May 23, 2012
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Hi All,

I'm just signing on to have an 18'x36' rectangular IG pool built in Eastern PA. Permit application is going in tomorrow, hopefully ground will break around the end of April / beginning of May.

My builder uses Hayward products. On the equipment side, I've opted for a DE filter, VSP, and SWG. In addition to the filter, the VSP will also run 4 deck jets and the pool will have a light (standard halogen as he said I'd be unhappy with the brightness of LED with a darker liner). He's also going to stub out some plumbing for me so that I can add solar in the future when I'm ready.

I've asked him for a list of equipment models and hopefully should have it tomorrow. I know he's going Hayward for the filter and VSP but with another manufacturer for the SWG. He told me over the phone but I can't recall it at the moment - He said he preferred it for a few different reasons, one of which was a see through cell.

As you can see, I won't have a lot of peripherals associated with the pool but I'm starting to wonder about an automation panel. I had pretty much dismissed them when talking to different pool builders and costing out this project as I was trying to keep costs down. Now that I'm looking further on my own, I'm wondering if it wouldn't make sense to just add a base panel now that I could use if anything was added in the future. I really thought this could be a cost effective idea prior to finding out that my PB didn't use a Hayward SWG.

I'm a bit of a gadget geek so in that respect, I know that I'd love to have at least a base automation panel. On the other hand, am I just talking myself into spending more $ for no reason, especially in PA where the swimming season is relatively short? If he doesn't like Hayward SWG cells then again, maybe that's another reason for me to forgo an automation panel. Guess I'm just looking for a bit of advice.

Thanks in advance!
Scott
 
Scott, most of the automation option, eg Pentair easy touch, Jandy aqua link, hayward omnilogic, are fairly robust in cost...but each of them has an option to extend communications to you cell phone and in some scenarios, home automation systems.

In a short season, for example, you may want to "phone home" to make sure the pool's warm enough for a night swim after work, or be able to monitor the setup remotely while on vacation. If you want to do those kinds of things, there won't be anything "basic" about your setup in terms of cost ;)

In my retrofit, I instead opted for the Intermatic PE653 multiwave with remote. This uses older zwave tech. I got the multiwave system for under $400 -- a fraction of the cost of other systems. It will integrate with a Pentair vsp, btw, but not other brands without a $350 extension panel (p503 I think.)

In this scenario, you can schedule your pump and heater runs. While it doesn't "directly" integrate with swg ther than aqua logic, its easy enough to pre-set your percentage and schedule the run time in an on-off condition. I've found it hugely convenient and highly reliable in and of itself.

I went a step further recently and then using hack code from github, integrated it "successfully" with smartthings hub so that I could then control it by phone. But some bug in either my code or smartthings stability caused my pump to stop running at an unscheduled time and in freezing weather wrecked the heat exchanger on an air warmer unit I had attached (I operate in winter in a dome, so its a risky proposition.) I had to kill of my "baby Hal" pool-home automation scenarios to preserved my gear ;) it worked great most of the time, but the occasion bug rendered it just too risky in my conditions.

Come summer when the stakes aren't as high, I plan to experiment some more to see if I can get a stable integration using we core pistons to poll conditions.

The gist of it is that a) automation of the system s a great thing to do; b) the "expensive" systems integrate better for remote/phone control but c) the multiwave PE 653 is a great option with a remote control that is very cost effective if you're content either just running it local or messing with groovy code ;) Honestly, you can pre schedule 90 percent of your function onsite...the phone control is to me just an ad hoc use/monitoring luxury.

Hopefully, that gives you a few things to think about. The thing I love most about my comparatively inexpensive system is that it heats my pool overnight so temps are perfect for a morning swim. Its also handy to boost the temp in-pool with the remote during a night swim, etc. So in a new build, the multiwave would be my minimum install ;)
 
Scott,

The number one rule in pool automation is that any Automation system, any VS pump, and any SWCG, all need to be able to talk with one another. The best way to do this is by using the same brand of equipment for each device. There are a few exceptions, but not many..

The number two rule in automation is that it is always best to install the automation while the pool is being built.. This is because it is much easier to run all the power and wiring before any decking goes down. A very simple example is the pool light. If the original location of the pool light switch is next to your back door, after the pool is build and all the decking is down, it might be almost impossible to reroute the wiring back to the automation system.

The number three rule is that almost no one "needs" automation... Just like you don't need power windows in your car, or a Key FOB to open your car doors.. You don't need them, but who buys a car without them???

The number four rule is that 5 years from now you will have fully forgotten the small increase in overall pool cost that the automation system added..


Just to wet your automation whistle.... Below is a screen shot from my automation system... without automation, if I want to adjust the salt cell's output, I would have to go out to the equipment pad and push a button or two... with automation I just push the up or down arrows on my PC, Tablet, or Phone.. I am so lazy...:rolleyes:

dbtgallery.php


Thanks for posting,

Jim R.
 
First I would go with a controller, you won't be sorry. It is nice to be able to remotely turn on and off the equipment, pool lights, landscape lights, etc. But you are better off sticking with a controller from the same manufacture as the pump for full programmable capabilities. If you go with Hayward, their controllers already support SWGs without a separate unit so you only have the additional cost of the cell itself. Some other manufactures do as well.
 
Scott,

Without offense to some on this forum, the Hayward product is entry level equipment. Its longevity is poor and most experienced pool builders avoid it. If your PB is pushing Hayward, I have concerns for his experience level and/or service level. Based on your descriptions of his advice, he’s either a “I’ve been doing it this way for years, so why change” guy, or is simply uninformed and uneducated. Sorry for being blunt. I know the pool builder choices in your neck of the woods are limited.

Pentair’s automation platform is exceptional when paired with Pentair equipment. But, if you mix equipment, expect mixed results. For example, Pentair’s Easy Touch panel will control Jandy lights, but not correct color selection. And, Jandys LEDs have a high failure rate... we averaged 120% turnover in 2 years.

Personally, I would avoid a SWG, particularly in PA, where temperatures are moderate. The maintenance costs can be high. But, it’s your call. My advice would be to spend your money elsewhere on equipment and spend $60 on tabs at Costco each Spring. Additionally, Pentair’s cartridge filter is extremely efficient but with less hassle than DE. Check the filtration rates and efficiencies yourself. And last... just add more LEDs. 3 in a pool of that size would be enough. 4 would knock your socks off and cost about $250 more.

Automation is great for a lot of reasons listed above by others, but it’s also convenient. Programming and scheduling are a breeze and the data feed is useful. I have the full IntelliChem system, and like Jimrahbe above, geek out on the interface.

Good luck on your build. ����
 
In regards to the above advice about buying "tabs at Costco" I will tell you that is not how things are done here at TFP. I invite you to read this: TFPC for Beginners

Those tabs add CYA aka stabilizer to the water. The only way to get rid of the CYA is by draining the water and refilling. Depending on where you live that may not be a viable option due to cost or water restrictions.

Good luck with your decision!

Kim:kim:
 
I have Hayward automation and products. Overall I am happy with the system. I have not added the mobile or computer control, but do have a remote and panel to control everything.

Also, I am in Southern New Jersey and have a SWG. I don’t know about the increased maintenance cost. I have had my pool for 1 1/2 seasons, but other than acid, I don’t really have to add anything.

Automation does make it easy, but the more equipment you’re operating the higher return on the investment. I have an attached spa, deck jets run off separate pump, heater, and cleaner. It’s nice to be able to turn the spa on from inside the house and see on the remote when it gets up to temperature.

I’ve looked at the mobile app and connector ($+350). There’s not a lot of good reviews on apple’s App Store and the images look severely dated. I haven’t looked into their Omnilogic product.
 
kimkats said:
In regards to the above advice about buying "tabs at Costco" I will tell you that is not how things are done here at TFP. I invite you to read this: TFPC for Beginners

Those tabs add CYA aka stabilizer to the water. The only way to get rid of the CYA is by draining the water and refilling. Depending on where you live that may not be a viable option due to cost or water restrictions.

Good luck with your decision!

Kim:kim:
Click to expand...

Very valid point. A poor example. I don’t use these tabs myself, but though it was a good monetary example. I could have chosen a better one. ����
 

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Scott,

whatever control system you choose [if you do] and you want a VSP, note that you will not be able to program, and robustly operate your VSP from another manufacturer's controller, period.

Next, your main pump is the heart of your pool. if you want a VSP, do not get the Hayward ecostar..it's notoriously known for a defective controller design, no matter how many they ship to you. If you do want a VSP, you might want to ask your PB what other options they can work w you. Do TONS OF RESEARCH on your pumps and read the reviews...I wish I did, I would have selected another PB...good luck and post back w your selections
 
Tstx, just so you know re:
whatever control system you choose [if you do] and you want a VSP, note that you will not be able to program, and robustly operate your VSP from another manufacturer's controller, period
Click to expand...

This may be true with the other systems. With Intermatic PE653 Multiwave without extension you can control 4 speed settings on a Pentair VSP. With the p504 expander, you can control just about all other brands, including Century.

However, by "control" I mean set 4 different speeds...not incremental units the way you do with the onboard controls.

I just wanted to clarify that part so that people retrofitting or wanting to economize in a new build are aware of what's possible...as well as the limitations.
 
Swampwoman said:
Tstx, just so you know re:

This may be true with the other systems. With Intermatic PE653 Multiwave without extension you can control 4 speed settings on a Pentair VSP. With the p504 expander, you can control just about all other brands, including Century.

However, by "control" I mean set 4 different speeds...not incremental units the way you do with the onboard controls.

I just wanted to clarify that part so that people retrofitting or wanting to economize in a new build are aware of what's possible...as well as the limitations.
Click to expand...

SW, no problem...

What I was trying to clarify is that when you have Controller/Automation Panel X, and you have VSP Y, you cannot program that pump from your remote or main panel, you have to use the VSP's panel to change settings and all other programming, set your speeds, etc. Then w an interface device, you can turn on or off and change speeds from one to the other..but, to get the true and full programming capabilities of a VSP from the remote, you need the same brand automation and VSP. If you have enough of aux/relay slots, you can also set up diff speeds for the VSP and use these too.

As stated by others,. automation is a convenience and preference, but if you are going to have automation, the only way [as of today] to realize the full potential of any VSP is by using the same brand controller. Hope this makes better sense.

Thanks, tstex
 
For the sake of balance, let me offer an alternative view into the thread:

First, I'm a tinkerer and gizmo geek myself, but I chose no automation and am perfectly happy with that choice so far. I do have one regret: not getting a Variable Speed Pump, and maybe I would consider a robot cleaner were I to do this again, but overall I've been very happy. We were trying to stick to a fairly tight budget and our overall setup is on the simpler side. Also, having seen some of the OEM remote controllers from friends' pools, unless you can get something to control via a smartphone or i-pad, it didn't seem worth it at all.

So for a fairly basic pool without various features that you'd need to control for different times during the day, going manual has been perfectly fine:
The mechanical timers are set to run the main pump for X hours per day and the cleaner booster pump for a couple of hours within that time. The SWG runs when the pump runs. This operates automatically every day with no intervention required unless you want to change the pump run times or SWG ouptut %. To do that, I have to go to my equipment pad instead of using a remote controller. Since I'm usually only making program changes after doing water testing or adding chemicals, this is really no big deal since I'm outside by the pool then anyway.
If I want to use the hot tub, i have to manually switch two valves, turn on the heater, and make sure the pump is on - takes about 10 seconds. Usually I'm home to do this anyway, so also no big deal. I cannot fire up the hot tub while I'm not home, so that is one drawback but I have never missed this so far. I also have to get out of the hot tub and walk to the heater to change the temp (have done maybe once), but I don't see myself ever keeping my smartphone in the hot tub anyway so this seems moot also.
To turn on my pool lights, I have to flip a light switch outside, which is right by where all the other outside light switches are located also, so I'm going there to turn on a light anyway (and I have no need to turn on lights while I'm not there).
About the only real drawback I can think of is not being able to do anything remotely while I'm on vacation, but I'm not sure I would ever need to anyway.
 
i sngencarelli, welcome to the forum.

I'm only going to post regarding my experience, which so far has been great.
I chose all Pentair products since I was going to automate, one brand less hassles.
My pool is slightly smaller than yours 16*32 oval.

Pentair Intelliflow VF pump. - A bit pricey, but I can turn the pool over 2 times a day using an average 140 watts over 10 hours. The electric bill has barley has a blip on it using this pump.
It is also very quiet at lower speeds.

Pentair 320 S/F cartridge filter - Always oversize the filter. I have only cleaned the cartridges twice in two years. The water is always crystal clear.

Pentair IC-40 chlorine generator - I started with 360 pounds of solar salt at the beginning. Then only need to add a bag or two per season, it depends on how much rain overflow we get. You will need a bit more stabilizer for a salt pool to keep the CYA up, but that is not much of a cost. Swimming in salt water is much nicer than chlorine.

Pentair Intellitouch 4 load center - My only regret is that I didn't buy the Intellitouch 8, I am maxing out my circuits.

Pentair Glowbrite LED lights - These are small lights, so I put 4 in. Trust me, they are bright. You can search my handle for my Radiant pool installation and you will see the pictures.

Pentair Screentouch automation - Not required, but it is very nice to have full control remotely.

Finally, I just purchased the Pentair 108 BTU Heatpump. This will extend my New England swim season from the beginning of May until mid/late October.

****More importantly, make sure you piping is adequate. There is a piping chart somewhere on this forum, give it a good read. You want high volume, but a low flow rate. This will prevent high head pressure for the pump. High head pressure will cause the pump to run less efficient, possibly reducing the life span as well. Since our pump is 50 feet away from the pool it could cause some restriction in all of that pipe. I used both the 2" and 1 1/2" drains in the skimmer. Used a fitting to increase the 1 1/2" fitting to 2" so there are two 2" pipes running back to the pump. Just before the pump, I joined them together since the pump only has one 2" connection, but this allows a high volume of water to flow. On the return side I ran two 1 1/2" pipes to four returns in the pool. Even at 40 GPM, the needle on my pressure gauge barley registers. One return eyeball per corner. Pipe is cheap, so do it properly.
 
This is going to be a long post, so get a cup of coffee and settle into your favorite chair.

I had the Omnilogic system installed for 2 years now. Overall, the Omnilogic system is nothing but a remote electrical panel with a simple proprietary computer that allows you to modify certain parameters. If I knew what I know about the system today I would never buy it. The documentation of the system has numerous errors and omissions. For example, they would list certain types of Hayward pumps to be compatible, but after buying the "supported" pump and spending over three hours on the phone with their support, they have concluded that a particular hardware revision of the circuit board inside the pump is not compatible with Omnilogic. Solution? Buy a new pump of course!

Another "minor" issue is that some of the connectivity diagrams were incorrect. Most of the pool companies around my area (southern NY) are run by d-bags that employ seasonal/uneducated workers and have no idea about what Omnilogic is and how it works. And YES, I am talking about companies listed as authorized Omnilogic dealers on Hayward's web site. The interface of the system (on the panel itself) looks like it was build by an amateur programmer 2 decades ago. The menu tree, the way options are selected and saved, viewing of current configuration - all of that feels like it was designed by someone heavily intoxicated. The "Internet integration" is pathetic. Instead of building it the right way, Hayward skimped on pretty much everything. First they took a cheap 2.4Ghz 802.11n wireless bridge made by a company called EnGenius, slapped a Hayward part number on it, raised the price THREE TIMES and started selling it as "Wireless Communications for OmniLogic. Then they wrote a very kludgy integration into their 1980's proprietary Omnilogic interface to make it talk to the wireless bridge. Finally they created a web site that you can access to control the system and an mobile app so you can control everything from the mobile device. The overall solution works like very poorly. The wireless bridge range is weak, once in a while it just disconnects from the network, causing your entire pool equipment to be "offline" in your app and the web site. As a cherry on top, sometimes even when the system shows online and you try to change options, the mobile app tells you that the option has been changed (for example, you tried turning the heater off), but NOOO, when you look at the actual Omnilogic panel, you may discover that your mobile app change did not make it over there.

Let me make this clear - unless you have a PROFESSIONAL company that has technicians that worked on multiple Omnilogic installs, STAY WAY from this system. If you do have a professional company, when something does not work well, you can make them fix it or ask them to take it back when it does not work. I do not suggest doing it yourself. I am a IT engineer by trade and have been working in the IT industry for 20+ years. I know a poorly made product when I see one. This brings me to the other side of equation - the company. I am not 100% sure about today, but even a year ago 90% of their support staff did not have a CLUE about how Omnilogic works, how to troubleshoot it, etc. I think they had one person who had a clue, but you had better chances of seeing last year's snow than getting a hold of him. Even that guy would occasionally mutter something like "Oh yeah, this diagram is wrong, I told them to fix it but they did not". GREAT! This should give you an idea of what level of support to expect from Hayward when it comes to Omnilogic. I think they spent all their tech support budget on making stupid videos on how great Omnilogic is.

I have not dealt with any other brands of pool automation yet (Pentair, etc) but I sincerely hope that they are much better than Omnilogic.
 
Ek, if you are an IT engineer, I’m afraid you won’t be especially impressed with other automation options either, though allegedly yours is notoriously buggy. The pool industry must be where obsolesceced programmers-go to die ;)

Pentair’s system is reasonabley reliable within itself but old proprietary code; Jandy iaqualink is down or offline lately. (Like, even more than Smartthings) and Intermatic has given up even pretending it’s old zwave will talk to anything, though the pe653 is very inexpensive and works really well locally with its remote -never a comm prob. And I knew before I bought it that it doesn’t play nice with home automation, so for me it was a decent acquisition given the $350 price tag ;)

On the upside, if you don’t mind spending the time and get sick of the omnilogic, the cheap PE653 can be more or less bent to your will with some device handling hacks and polls on switch status on Smartthings to “make it mobile” but then again you’re relying on the Smartthings hub to stay up, which IME never happens for more than 30 consecutive days and if your hub fries you have to start over because there’s no local backup ;)

Any time I’ve ever had to call Intermatic or Raypak about automation/integration problems, I’ve asked to speak with an engineer or installer support. At those companies, you’ll find reasonably knowledgeable help that way so the same may be true with the other pool cos. Eg. Anyone on this forum is likely to be more knowledgeable than a typical pool mfg customer service rep.
 
Sounds like a nightmare. I have the iAquaLink and besides a hardware upgrade snafu on Jandy's side of the house that had a lot of folks unable to use the service for 2 days the system is great. During the downtime the programs still ran you just lost remote functions and if needed could run everything from the control panel. An inconvenience but nothing too bad. The online system can be slow at times but I’ve been satisfied with it.
 

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