New build (day three pool startup) cloudy, bubbles

[Tom09]

I appreciate all the assistance and advice so far. Does anyone have feedback on the skimmers, using two verse one and would 2 sheer descents be ok?

The shelf seem like a good area or should it change?

 

[Tom09]

deleted

 

[mas985]

Two skimmers can be warranted if you get a lot of debris in pool and/or if the wind blows from different directions.

I have two skimmers but most of the debris ends up in one of the two skimmers so I could have probably done away with one.

The downside of two skimmers is that you will need to run the pump at twice the flow rate of a single skimmer which will have an impact on energy use. Each skimmer requires ~15 GPM to work properly.

 

[Tom09]

Two skimmers can be warranted if you get a lot of debris in pool and/or if the wind blows from different directions.

I have two skimmers but most of the debris ends up in one of the two skimmers so I could have probably done away with one.

The downside of two skimmers is that you will need to run the pump at twice the flow rate of a single skimmer which will have an impact on energy use. Each skimmer requires ~15 GPM to work properly.

Thank you so much, the wind is blowing to the east right now. The other day it was south/east. With that being said, on the drawing, east is at the top of the page and south is to right. If my shelf is south, where should I place the skimmer? Only reason I was opting for two skimmers is from the feedback I’ve read where most suggested two skimmers.

I am opting out of the suction port since I will be looking to get a robotic cleaner.

Also for equipment, I’ve been doing research and I’m torn between the intelliflo03 and intellifloxf. Ill have one skimmer if it makes since, and the main drain. I am still deciding on returns, and placement.

We will be looking into doing solar heating as well.

Would It be best to have two pumps if I have solar heating, two sheer descents (24” maybe 36”?) and the above mentioned items?

 

[Tom09]

Like what I see so far. The one thing I want you to think about is moving the shallow end to 4'. That helps ease the slope to the deep end.

Lets also talk about WATER depth. Some people talk about depth by saying from the floor to the coping but that is not water depth. Water depth is from the floor to the middle of skimmer opening.

Based on further reading of this great community, we will opt for 4’ it’s a bit higher than our kids, but they will grow.

We have a dig date of the 9th of this month. I am trying to figure out everything!!! I’m stressed and I don’t want to miss anything.

 

[mas985]

If wind blows mostly to the east, then that is where the skimmer should be.

Also, main drains are really overrated. I have one but close it off to get more skimming action. Having two skimmers and no MD is not a bad choice.

Solar really shouldn't come into play for the number of pumps. But it should for total flow rate of all the features. 72" of sheer descents would require up to 90 GPM so that really should not be an issue with one pump but it may mean you won't be able to skim at the same time as the sheers are running. It is usually a good idea to have a separate pump for special water features but keep in mind the sheers should have their own filter to prevent clogs.

 

[Tom09]

If wind blows mostly to the east, then that is where the skimmer should be.

Also, main drains are really overrated. I have one but close it off to get more skimming action. Having two skimmers and no MD is not a bad choice.

Solar really shouldn't come into play for the number of pumps. But it should for total flow rate of all the features. 72" of sheer descents would require up to 90 GPM so that really should not be an issue with one pump but it may mean you won't be able to skim at the same time as the sheers are running. It is usually a good idea to have a separate pump for special water features but keep in mind the sheers should have their own filter to prevent clogs.

Thank you for your input. When i finally think i understand and can make informed decisions, i'm further confused. Is there a reason you suggest one skimmer vs two?

Also, if i decide one or two skimmers with a main drain, that will be 2-3 suctions. If i have a loop for returns and two separate returns for sheer descents would that be balanced?

Suggestions on return placement?

Am i posting in the wrong area, should this be in pumps, filters, and plumbing?

 

[kimkats]

You are posting in a good area and getting some of the best help with @mas985 so we will keep it right here.

 

[mas985]

Thank you for your input. When i finally think i understand and can make informed decisions, i'm further confused. Is there a reason you suggest one skimmer vs two?

I wasn't suggesting one over two. I was just trying to give you the pros and cons of 1 vs 2. With 2, you will need to run a VS at higher RPM with more energy use (con). With 2 placed in the appropriate locations, more debris will be collected (pro). However, if the placement of the 2nd skimmer is in a location where the wind will constantly blow debris away from the skimmer, then is basically a waste (con).

You said the wind blows to the East (top of drawing) and sometimes to the south where you cannot place a skimmer. So the logical choice is one at least on the east edge maybe closer to the south. Putting two on the same wall would not benefit you any and as I said before, would only increase pump energy use.However, you also have the waterfalls on the East side which might push some of the debris away from that side so maybe the west or north side might not be a bad choice. Sometimes the design of a pool has no real ideal location.

I just noticed too that the East side has a raised wall so that may not work well for a skimmer. So you might be stuck placing the skimmers on the North and West side and rely on the returns to push the debris toward the skimmers.

Also, if i decide one or two skimmers with a main drain, that will be 2-3 suctions. If i have a loop for returns and two separate returns for sheer descents would that be balanced?

If you go with 2 pumps, the 2nd pump will need it's own suction port and if that is for the sheers, a wall port or a floor port is sufficient. I would not run the sheers off a skimmer because of the debris load. The skimmer(s) could then be used for the main filter and main returns on a completely separate loop.

Suggestions on return placement?

Opposite side of the skimmer is a good choice. Having one or two on the sun shelf can help keep it free from debris.

 

[Tom09]

I wasn't suggesting one over two. I was just trying to give you the pros and cons of 1 vs 2. With 2, you will need to run a VS at higher RPM with more energy use (con). With 2 placed in the appropriate locations, more debris will be collected (pro). However, if the placement of the 2nd skimmer is in a location where the wind will constantly blow debris away from the skimmer, then is basically a waste (con).

You said the wind blows to the East (top of drawing) and sometimes to the south where you cannot place a skimmer. So the logical choice is one at least on the east edge maybe closer to the south. Putting two on the same wall would not benefit you any and as I said before, would only increase pump energy use.However, you also have the waterfalls on the East side which might push some of the debris away from that side so maybe the west or north side might not be a bad choice. Sometimes the design of a pool has no real ideal location.

I just noticed too that the East side has a raised wall so that may not work well for a skimmer. So you might be stuck placing the skimmers on the North and West side and rely on the returns to push the debris toward the skimmers.


If you go with 2 pumps, the 2nd pump will need it's own suction port and if that is for the sheers, a wall port or a floor port is sufficient. I would not run the sheers off a skimmer because of the debris load. The skimmer(s) could then be used for the main filter and main returns on a completely separate loop.


Opposite side of the skimmer is a good choice. Having one or two on the sun shelf can help keep it free from debris.

The wind blows south east and north west, since i can not place it on the south nor east wall, which would be the best placement?

We are about to start next week and im still trying to decide lay out, etc. Once they start, it's over. You mention one/two returns on the shelf, we will also have a bench across by the descent, do we need any returns there?

is the loop the best layout as well?

what size plumbing would be sufficient for the falls and skimmer/ main drain. I've been debating over the main drain, but i've read it's usually still good to have, but may lead to problems, so still unsure.

 

[Tom09]

Maybe @kimkats or others will chime in for water descents, would 2x24" or maybe 2x36" or having three look better.

 

[mas985]

The wind blows south east and north west, since i can not place it on the south nor east wall, which would be the best placement?

I am still confused. Are you saying the wind blows FROM south east TO north west? If so, then somewhere near the north west corner would be fine. If you want two skimmers, put them mid way between the north and west walls.

We are about to start next week and im still trying to decide lay out, etc. Once they start, it's over. You mention one/two returns on the shelf, we will also have a bench across by the descent, do we need any returns there?

Returns over benches just help keep them clean. It is an option, not a necessity.

is the loop the best layout as well?

Not sure what you mean by this. If you mean a return loop around the pool, I am not a big fan. See this:

Analysis of Plumbing Loops and Other Configurations

I, like most people, have long believed that plumbing loops can help balance return flow through multiple returns in a pool or spa but I was curious as to how much they really help and if there are other ways to balance return flow. So I performed a detailed analysis on 6 different plumbing...

www.troublefreepool.com

To equalize flow out of returns, you are better off upsizing the return pipes or using more return pipes.

what size plumbing would be sufficient for the falls and skimmer/ main drain. I've been debating over the main drain, but i've read it's usually still good to have, but may lead to problems, so still unsure.

I would skip the MD. Use 2.5" for each skimmer back to the equipment pad.

MD Myths:

-MDs help keep the pool clean. FALSE. Dump a bucket of dirt on a MD and only about 2" around the MD will be clean.

- MDs improve circulation. Not very much. A return pointed downward or a lower return will do a much better job of circulation.

- They make it easier to drain a pool. FALSE. You can drain a couple of feet but after that the suction head rises and the pump will start leak air in. The best way to drain a pool is using a sump pump.

 

[Tom09]

I am still confused. Are you saying the wind blows FROM south east TO north west? If so, then somewhere near the north west corner would be fine. If you want two skimmers, put them mid way between the north and west walls.


Returns over benches just help keep them clean. It is an option, not a necessity.


Not sure what you mean by this. If you mean a return loop around the pool, I am not a big fan. See this:

Analysis of Plumbing Loops and Other Configurations

I, like most people, have long believed that plumbing loops can help balance return flow through multiple returns in a pool or spa but I was curious as to how much they really help and if there are other ways to balance return flow. So I performed a detailed analysis on 6 different plumbing...

www.troublefreepool.com

To equalize flow out of returns, you are better off upsizing the return pipes or using more return pipes.



I would skip the MD. Use 2.5" for each skimmer back to the equipment pad.

MD Myths:

-MDs help keep the pool clean. FALSE. Dump a bucket of dirt on a MD and only about 2" around the MD will be clean.

- MDs improve circulation. Not very much. A return pointed downward or a lower return will do a much better job of circulation.

- They make it easier to drain a pool. FALSE. You can drain a couple of feet but after that the suction head rises and the pump will start leak air in. The best way to drain a pool is using a sump pump.

Depending on the day and time, wind blows south east and right now it's blowing north west.

From your article, it looks like doing a serial feed 2.5/3" pipe or running individual feeds is better than a return loop? I do see people mention we should do return loops thats why i asked about it. would i place returns on all four walls?

The reason i mentioned MD was incase water drops below skimmer as i seen suggested here also dirt debris can be swept to it.

I appreciate your insight with all of this, i over think and over analyze, i just want to ensure we get it right the first time. I dont want the MD incase it causes problems later on or wish i had it to begin with.

We are new to this and as i mentioned the further reading i do, the more and more i am confused.

This process will be quick and i want to ensure i have enough confidence in the lay out/design.

 

[mas985]

Depending on the day and time, wind blows south east and right now it's blowing north west.

Unfortunately, you really don't have much of a choice. The skimmers have to go on the north or west wall because of the design. Just make sure the returns help debris move in that direction.

From your article, it looks like doing a serial feed 2.5/3" pipe or running individual feeds is better than a return loop?

Yes but keep in mind the returns really don't need to be identical in flow. With pretty much any design, the flow rates will be close enough to get the job done.

I do see people mention we should do return loops thats why i asked about it. would i place returns on all four walls?

Not necessary. If you have them over the benches, you might not need anything else or maybe just one or two more locations. Not really that critical. Again, you just want to be able to push the debris towards the skimmers.

The reason i mentioned MD was incase water drops below skimmer as i seen suggested here also dirt debris can be swept to it.

Really, really bad idea. The forum is littered with pool owners who thought that was good idea and now their MDs are clogged with expensive repairs ahead of them. MDs are not designed to suck up a lot of debris, not much more than fine sand/dirt. A leaf rake or suction cleaner is much safer way to remove floor debris.

As for equalization, you can put wall ports right below the skimmers so that if they are to clog up, the wall port will open. However, this is only necessary in areas where you might get so much leaf drop that it would clog the skimmers. Never happens where I am but your situation could be different.

 

[Tom09]

Unfortunately, you really don't have much of a choice. The skimmers have to go on the north or west wall because of the design. Just make sure the returns help debris move in that direction.

Here's the wind directions, obviously it varies and right now it's blowing towards the North. If i have it on the west wall Would the returns point clockwise around the pool.

Yes but keep in mind the returns really don't need to be identical in flow. With pretty much any design, the flow rates will be close enough to get the job done.

Not necessary. If you have them over the benches, you might not need anything else or maybe just one or two more locations. Not really that critical. Again, you just want to be able to push the debris towards the skimmers.

This is the part i want to get right, i've seen pools with the returns ands skimmers in the wrong placement with debris still floating in the pool due to it.

Really, really bad idea. The forum is littered with pool owners who thought that was good idea and now their MDs are clogged with expensive repairs ahead of them. MDs are not designed to suck up a lot of debris, not much more than fine sand/dirt. A leak rake or suction cleaner is much safer way to remove floor debris.

As for equalization, you can put wall ports right below the skimmers so that if they are to clog up, the wall port will open. However, this is only necessary in areas where you might get so much leaf drop that it would clog the skimmers. Never happens where I am but your situation could be different.

I do not think i would have an issue with a clogged skimmer. i currently do not have any trees and the surrounding neighbors have a fruit tree and a few small trees that shouldn't cause a concern.

I am use to my parent's pool which was built many many years ago with single MD and one skimmer. We sweep the dirt towards the main drain.

If there's no MD, is there a point in sweeping? Again, i am use to their pool which is usually dirty at the bottom and needs to be swept. They have a suction cleaner connected to their skimmer. Growing up we had the pressure side cleaner and someone changed their plumbing around and now they use the suction cleaner.

 

[mas985]

I almost never sweep my pool except for maybe the stairs. The robot does the pool floor for me.

 

[kimkats]

water descents, would 2x24" or maybe 2x36" or having three look better.

In the decorating world you go with odd numbers for some reason but I do have to say I like odds look better than evens...............so 3 sheers it is!

 

[Tom09]

In the decorating world you go with odd numbers for some reason but I do have to say I like odds look better than evens...............so 3 sheers it is!

something like 3x24"?

 

[kimkats]

Lets see a close up of where you are going to put them and mock it up for us.

 

[Tom09]

My wife and i are discussing benefits of adding a second skimmer, the recommendation of the placement by the installer is on the baja shelf, i never thought about putting it there nor did i think it was an option.

My wife wants to have the suction port thats included in the plumbing phase. Should we leave it with the one skimmer, or having two skimmers and opting out of the dedicated suction port would be better.