Need help setting VS pump

[mas985]

Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to figure how much flow rate you have and where the excess head loss might be. Best that I can tell with skimmer only at 2800 RPM, you have a little over 40 GPM which is more than enough for a skimmer by itself. Most can collect down to 15 GPM which is why it surprises me that you can't balance cleaner with the skimmer.

But you said before you ran the cleaner alone at 2800 RPM and the filter pressure was 12 PSI. This should have a flow rate of just below 40 GPM which should be way more than what the poolcleaner needs and should be running really fast at that point. I am wonder if there is something than might be in the pool cleaner vanes which is slowing down the wheels. Do you have the 2 wheel version or the four wheel version? It might be worth it to check the cleaner to make sure there is nothing stuck in the vanes. The manual shows how to take off the bottom piece to clear out any debris.

Also, you said before that you have two returns in the pool. What is the diameter of the exit orifice (i.e. eyeball) of the returns?

 

[806pool]

Ask all of the questions you want,lol. Hopefully i can answer them to figure out whats going on.

I have the 4wheel version of the cleaner. I will check the vanes at the intake when i get home tonight. I thought the vains turn with the wheels as in the wheels wont spin if the vanes are jammed....i guess one could be blocked and still turning though. I could be mistaked though...ill check it out tonight.

Return orifice are 1" i believe. Ill measure when i get home.

Any other measurements you might need let me know and ill get them for you.

I really appreciate the time and help!!

 

[mas985]

I had my cleaner (2x) run slow before because of some leaves that never cleared the vanes and slowed the mechanism.

From what I have heard on the forum, the 4x requires a bit more flow rate than the 2x so that may explain it too.



Forgot to ask if you had backwashed your filter recently.

 

[806pool]

I measured the return eyes and they are 1" I.D...

No debris in vanes of pool cleaner...

So i did a little experiment, i unscrewed the eyes out of the returns, i undid the pool cleaner and held the suction port open.....to eliminate all possible issues we've talked about. Same psi on filter as before..12 and 14.

I tried researching the operating gpm for thepoolcleanerand what it requires and from what i read, both the 4wheel and 2wheel require a minimum of 35gpm....but in searching the forums, people say they can run way lower than that...i saw even 23gpm.

I dunno. So frustrating.

I have not backwashed my filter lately. I will give that a try and see if that lowers psi.

Edit: the last time i backwashed i set the dials at 10psi and 20psi....clean and when time to change...i read at the time when it raises 10psi over clean psi. I remember when i did it before it made a mess....powder all down the sidewalk and it seemed to stay forever.
Is there a better way to catch all of this stuff other than just dumping it down the sideyard?

Thanks!

 

[atttech-2]

the last time i backwashed i set the dials at 10psi and 20psi....clean and when time to change...i read at the time when it raises 10psi over clean psi.

That could be your problem the recommended pressure for "time to clean" is when it rises 15% to 20% over the clean PSI 10% would be even better. So in your case 12PSI time to backwash.

 

[806pool]

Did a backwash...ran water til clear for a few minutes, then shut off then let filter run for a bit...and did process three more times. Water was coming out clean. Added 4 scoops of DE mixed in a few 5gal buckets of water then added through skimmer with filter on. Hopfully thats correct. I think i need to add a bit more DE though...realized i didnt take into account the weight of the scoop itself. The scoop says leslies DE scoop on the bottom...i think its less than a pound. I researched and seems to be about 12oz...so i need just under one more scoop to be at the 80% of 4.5lbs it says to add for a fully cleaned filter.

Hopefully i got it right. I had to leave so ill complete it when i get back home in a bit....

Thanks!

 

[806pool]

Ok, got back did some readings after backwash and with eyeballs removed:

Skimmer open, suction closed 2800rpm, 781watts, filter @11psi
Cleaner open, skimmer closed 2800rpm, 775watts, filter @11psi

3way valve open half to skimmer and half to cleaner 2800rpm, 795watts, filter at 12psi (cleaner only turning at 6rpm.)

Psi went down just one psi, but watts went up.

Let me know what you are thinking or if i need more measurements of something

Also, was my backwash description correct and am i thinking right about having to add a little more?
The only thing i could do is maybe do a FULL cleaning... But not sure if it would help much...

 

[mas985]

The filter cleaning obviously helped some. By reducing head loss (lower filter pressure), pump flow rate increases and so does the power consumed as expected. So all that is normal.

But instead of 50:50 try to set the valve so that the cleaner gets the minimum RPM (11). See how the skimmer does at that setting. But don't expect too much from the skimmer. At lower flow rates it does take longer to skim the surface but eventually it will happen.

 

[806pool]

This morning before work i went out and got the cleaner to turn at 11rpm....but the skimmer is just BARELY open. I sat and stared at the skimmer for a few minutes and even some dust looking stuff right in fron lt of the skimmer wasnt being sucked in, lol.

With the skimmer completely off the cleaner will turn almost 15rpm...but any opening of the cleaner side and it bogs way down.

This is all with the motor operating at a single speed of 2800rpm (3000 is max). Maybe im thinking wrong, but if this is the case and i am running near max rpm all the time and still not getting the performance of the cleaner/skimmer working together, still not being able to run low rpms, its still not much different than my old ss pump and ball valve. Wonder if its any more efficient operating like this...

And this is all with a freshly backwashed filter...so any raise in pressure would cut performance below minimum again.

Are my only options to:
A)either return the pump and get one more suited where i can utilize the lower rpms, etc
B) manually have to go out and switch from skimmer to cleaner when need be
C)pull the cleaner out of the pool and run skimmer most of the time at a lower rpm, then drop in the cleaner when absolutley necessay depending on how well the skimmer does
D)redo all of the plumbing, lol

Let me know your thoughts. Kinda of a buzz kill. I read people running all kinds of features and i cant even get the two main components to work together

Thanks.

 

[mas985]

A) Doesn't matter what pump you get, you will need to run at higher RPM to support both. I did a quick check with all the VS pumps and equivalent flow rates of the MaxFlo at full speed and 2800 are about the same energy use. No magic here. Flow rate is related to energy use. However, a VS will be a bit more efficient than a SS even at high speed (~10-15% more efficient). Did you ever get a power company rebate for the pump? If so, then there may not be a point going to a SS.

B) That would be PITA unless you pair that with C.

C) That is probably a good solution because you want to capture the debris before it hits the floor.

D) I am pretty sure that would not pay off in the long run. It would allow lower RPM for the same flow rate which saves some energy but probably not enough to pay for the replumb.

Do you use a pool cover? If so, skimming really isn't important when the cover is on.

 

[atttech-2]

OK I have an out of the box idea, the cost and effort required probably makes it not worth it but here goes. How about a valve actuator on the 3-way attached to a timer that is set to coincide with the time you want the cleaner to run? I am guessing the cost would be around $160, parts needed would be an Intermatic valve actuator $82 on amazon, residential sprinkler controller $30 Home Depot, Ice cube relay $10 eBay, 40$ project box and wire.

Below is a schematic I made as well as one I found from an old post both basically same idea one use a 110V timer mine is a sprinkler timer.

 

[806pool]

Thank you for all of the help. So far ive been running the skimmer on a lower rpm for 4 hours or so every evening. Probably increase that to 6 hours as alot of debris seems to be making its way into the pool.

3 times a week ive been switching the 3-way manually to the cleaner and running it for a few hours at a higher rpm i have preset.


Thinking now maybe i should have gotten the other model with the ability to switch the valve electically with a timer. Or do something like was suggested above.

If i knew then, what i know now, lol

For now, doing it manually hasnt been too bad, just one more thing to think about and stay on top of.

Oh and we do/did have an auto cover. It tore the end of last season and we havent gotten it replaced yet due to other things popping up. Actually in the process of getting quotes to redo the vault as we speak. So once the new cover is installed all of this may change id assume.
Thanks again.