Need help picking a whole new SWG system

[mbernard]

Hello and thank you in advance!
I have an 18' x 36' vinyl liner rectangular pool with a shallow end at around 3.5' - 4' that goes to 8' on the deep end, 28k gallons. The 2 returns/skimmers I have for the pool are the box kind, so no nozzles or bottom drain. I live in NC and do not have shelter for the system.
I am going on SWG system #3. The 1st 2 I had are no longer in production and I do not want to be in that situation again. I am having a rough time finding something that will both work well, have support and be user friendly that will fit my current configuration without having to do an entire reconfiguration of the sand filter, pump and plumbing. The Pentair IC40 has been suggested as well as a Hayward. I did a little research, and one site suggested the Zodiac SWG by Jandy, and another the CircuPool RJ45 Plus. A friend of mine has the Pool Pilot Digital by autopilot that has been working for their pool for quite since 2007and he says it is easy. So, here I am inquiring about what the folks in the forum have and what they would recommend.
The Pentair IC 40 - the issue I have is current set up. it requires 12'18" of lead piping into the salt cell - that is inline - straight thru the cell - where right now I have a salt cell with the piping entering and exiting off the bottom of the cell. I do not see how the pool guys would install it easily. I also have a Pool Tiger after the cell that is taking up some plumbing real estate. The PVC pipe coming off of the filter to the bend that goes into the bottom of the existing cell is exactly 12". (See Picture).
The hayward - the pool guys say they have to come out and recalibrate some things on them and seem more high maintenance. So I am putting htat one on the backburner.
the Zodiac by Jandy - suggested by the poolguystore - never heard of - they do not have documentation for me to read to figure out how to install (Like I did the pentair to find out that will be a lot of trouble and additional costs)
The Pool Pilot Digital - a friend has it says it is old but is working fine. Did a little research and found they have been around since the 70's although by a different name so that is a consideration.
Now with all of that said, the way things are made these days has me walking on eggshells. I bought a new cell last year - and now I need a new system. It seems things break all to easily and I just want the best value for my money with the least headache that I can run easily on my own. Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thank you!!

 

[proavia]

Welcome to TFP!

We recommemd a SWG rated for twice your pool volume.
You have a 28,000 gallon pool.
Look for a SWG rated for 60,000 gallons.

The Circupool RJ60+ would work.
Look at the Circupool RJ45+ and select the upgrade to the RJ60+ for $10 more (presently).
They usually always have a similar special going.

The TFP methods are predicated on doing your own testing at home. For that you need one of the recommended test kits. Pool store testing is inconsistent and inaccurate.
Test Kits Compared
The TF-Pro Salt will serve you well.

 

[sande005]

The RJ60+ would work well. It does need it's own length of lead in pipe, but adding in a plumbing loop to accommodate it is straightforward (same for the other brands). Sure, it is preferable to not have a bunch of right angle bends and extra pipe in the plumbing, but the extra work for the pump will not be much.
Consider removing the Pool Tiger to make room. But I'm always skeptical about claims for any kind of "magic" water. I wonder how it "knows" whether CYA is excessive, and needs to be removed, yet leave enough to serve its purpose......and with a SWCG, the only CYA is what you put in there deliberately, so you don't want to reduce it....I could go on about it's other many magic properties...but won't. Maybe you like it!
You didn't mention how the current equipment is controlled. If via clock timers, the RJ60 will be easy to hookup. If you have some other programmable system, please note it so we can advise on compatibility for turning the SWCG on and off. It does have a flow switch to turn it off when the pump is off, but that is a safety feature, and not something to be depended on for routine use.

 

[Newdude]

I wouldn't worry about the straight pipe recommendation from most of manufacturers. You have a dirt simple setup with tons of flow. With similar, my first cell was 90'd directly to my heat pump and 8 years later when I learned it was a potential issue, it wasn't broke.

 

[mbernard]

The RJ60+ would work well. It does need it's own length of lead in pipe, but adding in a plumbing loop to accommodate it is straightforward (same for the other brands). Sure, it is preferable to not have a bunch of right angle bends and extra pipe in the plumbing, but the extra work for the pump will not be much.
Consider removing the Pool Tiger to make room. But I'm always skeptical about claims for any kind of "magic" water. I wonder how it "knows" whether CYA is excessive, and needs to be removed, yet leave enough to serve its purpose......and with a SWCG, the only CYA is what you put in there deliberately, so you don't want to reduce it....I could go on about it's other many magic properties...but won't. Maybe you like it!
You didn't mention how the current equipment is controlled. If via clock timers, the RJ60 will be easy to hookup. If you have some other programmable system, please note it so we can advise on compatibility for turning the SWCG on and off. It does have a flow switch to turn it off when the pump is off, but that is a safety feature, and not something to be depended on for routine use.

The equipment is controlled manually. Right now, I never turn it off. As for the pool tiger, the water feels amazing. The structured water it creates makes swimming even more enjoyable. It makes your skin really, really soft. As for whether or not it helps the pool stay cleaner, I feel like it does. Now feelings aren't fact, but this is the first season I had it installed at pool opening and it seemed to help clear the algae and get water clarity really fast in comparison to past seasons. My whole family noticed the difference in the water, and my nephew has really sensitive skin and he had no issues swimming last year. The only thing that was different was the pool tiger and for that alone (my nephews sensitive skin) it stays. The pool tiger simply structures the water, no other claims. But you can definitely feel the difference. As for whether the structured water helps repel algae, I had less issues last year with algae (there are a lot of frogs in my yard and they like to lay their eggs in the pool)
Having said that, if the configuration of the piping is not an issue for the systems then I am back at square one with many options. I have been looking into the autopilot more as my friend has one that is working since 2007 and has a self cleaning salt cell. Muriadic acid is not something I am comfortable with handling to be honest. I usually have the pool guys handle that type of thing at pool opening. How often does the circupool require the cell to be cleaned over the course of the pool season?
Thank you for your help!

 

[Newdude]

As for the pool tiger,

Pool Tiger?

Has anyone used these? Does it really work or make a difference in using less chemicals or stopping scale from forming? I’m here at a Thursday Pools conference and went to check out the vender booth after Thursday said they recommend this.

www.troublefreepool.com

Anyone use a Pool Tiger?

I’ve been getting Facebook ads for Pool Tiger as of late. I’ve watched the videos and I’m intrigued, but I can’t find any reviews online except for those on the site. It’s expensive, but might be worth it if it works as advertised. Does anyone have experience with it or are familiar with the...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Newdude]

My whole family noticed the difference in the water, and my nephew has really sensitive skin and he had no issues swimming last year.

Get yourself the TFP water with a proper CYA/FC ratio, Ph in range and no CCs. The salt may help even further above and beyond terrific. Nearly every pool I was ever in was gross besides mine. Some friends with skin issues would only swim at my house and it was the balanced water.

How often does the circupool require the cell to be cleaned over the course of the pool season?

For any SWG, with a vinyl pool and no/low CH, you'll never need to clean it. Even for those with high CH, with TFP balanced water cleanings are rare if ever.

 

[proavia]

The "soft" you feel is most probably due to salt in the pool wqter. The Pool Tiger likely has copper in it that leaches into the pool water - you don't want copper or any other metals in the pool water.

If you keep your water balanced using TFP recommended levels, there should be no need to clean the SWG cell.
If cleaning is needed, you can manually clean the cell - and if further cleaning is needed, use vinegar.
Most all cells are "self-cleaning" - hence why they reverse polarity before each duty period.
Many of us have cells that haven't needed any cleaning in several years.

Muriatic acid isn't difficult to handle. And you should be using it to adjust pH.
Using dry acid adds unnecessary sulfates to the pool water and isn't recommended - especially with a SWG.

 

[Newdude]

Here's the Wikipedia take on it.

Hexagonal water - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

TLDR :

Hexagonal water, also known as gel water, structured water, cluster water,[1] H3O2 or H3O2 is a term used in a marketing scam[2][3] that claims the ability to create a certain configuration of water that is better for the body.

 

[Donldson]

The pool tiger simply structures the water, no other claims

What do you think that means? And how does a piece of pipe go about performing this "structuring"?

 

[mbernard]

What do you think that means? And how does a piece of pipe go about performing this "structuring"?

I watched the videos the company has on how it works. I cannot recall nor do I want to argue whether this thing does what it claims or not. What I have seen and experienced is that the water is nicer. It leaves the skin feeling softer than most beauty products on the market. My nephew has no skin irritation from the pool anymore and that is why it stays. I don't know if it helps with having to use less chemicals or not. I am not for or against the thing, but I bought it, experienced what I have, and it stays in line with the system until it poses a problem. I simply want to get suggestions on the SWG system with the least issues from people who know pools that aren't selling me the product. Thanks!

 

[Donldson]

I cannot recall nor do I want to argue whether this thing does what it claims or not.

But you are arguing that it is doing the things it says by saying that your water is nicer. How is it doing that? What is structured water and how does it make your water structured? Where is the testing showing that your water is now adequately structured as compared to before?

Do you know that the name of the product is actually an inside joke? The manufacturers called it that in reference to an old Simpsons episode.

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa: That’s specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn’t work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It’s just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

I'll give them this: they knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[sande005]

I opened that can of worms about the Tiger, but if you like it, you like it. Most important here is the claim that it reduces excess CYA via it's internal heat production. As you get familiar with the methods here, you'll see CYA can be pretty important to prevent your Cl from dropping too low during the day. So with your own test kit, you can monitor it as needed in case the Tiger does reduce it to lower than recommended. (and no, it does not add copper). [ - later edit: Oops, they do not mention it, but someone here cut one open, and said it DOES contain a coil of copper and a copper nail. Which addition is generally NOT recommended for pools!]

So, back to the SWCG and the RJ60+ - I've only had mine for a year, but it was easy to install, and has been easy to run. Many, many in this forum recommend it, and since I did the install myself, having a warranty that allowed DIY installation was important. Price was a bit less than some others. If you are going to depend on a pool guy to do the work, most of that will be moot - his labor/overhead will be a big factor in the total install cost.
It looks like you just have a single speed pump, correct? At minimum, you want things wired so when the pump is turned off, the SWCG is always turned off. That can be manual via a single switch, or using a simple clock timer to run things on a schedule.

With any brand, if your CH can be kept low, the cell should last many years. That factor depends a lot on how much is in your own local water supply (how hard it is). Those with very hard water experience the shortest life, and cleaning with acid - which also makes a big dent in its life. If lucky, with low CH, you may never have to clean it. Your test kit can reveal both what your pool currently has, and how much is in the water you use to fill the pool.

 

[mbernard]

I opened that can of worms about the Tiger, but if you like it, you like it. Most important here is the claim that it reduces excess CYA via it's internal heat production. As you get familiar with the methods here, you'll see CYA can be pretty important to prevent your Cl from dropping too low during the day. So with your own test kit, you can monitor it as needed in case the Tiger does reduce it to lower than recommended. (and no, it does not add copper). [ - later edit: Oops, they do not mention it, but someone here cut one open, and said it DOES contain a coil of copper and a copper nail. Which addition is generally NOT recommended for pools!]

So, back to the SWCG and the RJ60+ - I've only had mine for a year, but it was easy to install, and has been easy to run. Many, many in this forum recommend it, and since I did the install myself, having a warranty that allowed DIY installation was important. Price was a bit less than some others. If you are going to depend on a pool guy to do the work, most of that will be moot - his labor/overhead will be a big factor in the total install cost.
It looks like you just have a single speed pump, correct? At minimum, you want things wired so when the pump is turned off, the SWCG is always turned off. That can be manual via a single switch, or using a simple clock timer to run things on a schedule.

With any brand, if your CH can be kept low, the cell should last many years. That factor depends a lot on how much is in your own local water supply (how hard it is). Those with very hard water experience the shortest life, and cleaning with acid - which also makes a big dent in its life. If lucky, with low CH, you may never have to clean it. Your test kit can reveal both what your pool currently has, and how much is in the water you use to fill the pool.

Thank you! I do have a single speed pump. When I flip the switch on the post the pump and the SWG system turn off or on together, though I could turn off my SWG on its own with the power button via the control module. Power to both is not separately controlled. I am leaning towards the Circupool RJ60+ for the warranty period. The only downside I see is if the control module needs repairs you have to mail it in and wait. Seems like it could take a long time to get it resolved. The initial cost for the system and the cost for a new cell should I need one is a plus also. With the auto pilot - it is $200 more for the system and $200 more for the cell - but the system has the ability to tell you the ph levels where the Circupool does not.
I do have hard water. I have not had an issue with the cell developing build up in the past and have the pool crew do the initial cleaning and set up for the season. The test kit is on its the way though, and I will become the mad scientist lol and do the learning necessary to get things in line. If I never have to take the water sample in for the computerized testing again, I will be a happy camper. I will have to get some salt from somewhere though. I spent 8+ hours yesterday reading owner's manuals of various SWG systems and the info here in pool school.
Again, thank you for helping me rummage thru all of this. Greatly appreciated!

 

[sande005]

I have no experience with electrical reading of the pH, except for a cheapie hand held one that broke within two months.
Others here, have gone deep into testing, and found that most systems are not very accurate. Only the most expensive lab quality seem to work well, and they have to be pretty frequently recalibrated with standardized, separately purchased, samples.
Many here don't get too worked up about pH. Common advice is "If in the high 7's, you're OK". You'll find that what is included in the kit is really easy to use, and while not real precise, is more than enough to answer "Is it in a good range?".

If the pool crew was doing cell cleaning routinely every year, but you had no noticeable build up, that could be the big reason for premature cell failures. I sense an opportunity to pad the bill with extra service. That acid cleaning sometimes has to be done, but it takes a big chunk of life off of the cells. It is acid, eating away at things, after all.

Pentair and Circupool are name brands that I've seen here a lot. You might do a search here for Zodiac, Autopilot, and associated names/models to get a sense for what other site users say about them.