Myths or Facts?

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D

dtarantino

0
Jul 15, 2016
55
Florida
I've been using this site successfully now for about 6 months but decided I wanted to tackle some iron staining over the winter (believed to have been caused by the previous owner filling the water with well water). I went to the pool store to pick up some algeacide, absorbic acid, along with a sequestor agent and got questioned about what I was doing. After talking with the pool guy (who claimed to have been doing this for over 20yrs) he told me everything I was doing to maintain my pool was wrong and had the following to say about my treatment methods. I'm assuming they are myths but after some light arguing with him, he kept insisting that I was wrong...

Pool guy statements:
1) Liquid chlorine can/will result in staining because liquid chlorine contains lots of other contaminates because they use graywater in the process of making it. He said I should be using powder chlorine and tablets.
2) Muriatic acid should not be used for maintaining PH level because it results in PH spikes. And if it is added it should be pre-mixed first. He said I should be using dry acid as it's much more stable.
3) High CYA levels don't matter as long as your water is clear. This was after I told him that when I bought the house the CYA levels were at 160ppm. I have gotten down to ~70ppm at the moment.
4) I don't need an algeacide when doing the absorbic acid treatment (with a Cl level of 0ppm) because the water temp (under 70F) is too low to have an algae problem.
5) I should just put in a tri puck while doing the absorbic acid treatment to keep some level of CL in the pool. (This one may hold some merrit as it will keep a low CL level in the pool)

I'd really appreciate some insight/feedback on the points above. After studying on here, I don't think they hold much merit, but some direct response to them would help me figure out if I'm going in the wrong direction.

PS I don't find any trouble in using either liquid chlorine and/or muriatic acid. So that the only true argument that I've found against using them.

Thanks
 
Ill take the first.

1. WRONG on all counts. Has he been in a Chlorine Plant? Doesn't sound like it to me.

2. WRONG again. Dry acid adds Sulfates. And he is just wrong about the pH spikes. Sure, it CAN happen, if you're careless.
 
1. Funny - as nothing better in cleaning whites than something that can stain :)

3. Yes, but not for the reason he states. As long as you have sufficient free chlorine for the cyn level you have, then yes, you are ok, but at some point its just silly to have to maintain a really high fc level.
 
d,

I suggest you not try to argue with him as you will not be able to change his mind. Pool Store people like him are the main reason that so many pool owners have found a home at TFP...

Jim R.
 
Good for you for asking questions and making sure you have it right!

YOU are correct! TFP methods are science based as well as daily tested in thousands of pools. We can point you to the science papers if you would like. Just let us know.

He is saying what the pool industry has taught him to say. It is a method that helps THEM by getting you to spend money at their store!

Kim:kim:
 
1. Where would they even get that much gray water???
2. Muriatic acid lowers pH, why would it cause a pH spike? Spike down? Their pH probably spikes down because their powdered chlorine has dropped the TA to 0. I've been pouring lots of muriatic acid directly in to my pool for many years as have lots of other people here. Hard to argue that dry acid won't add sulfates to the pool when the chemical name is sodium bisulfate. :)
3. They clearly do not understand the science behind how chlorine and CYA interact.
4. Algae is slower to grow when the water is below 70, even slower below 60. But, why take the chance? Just don't use algaecide with copper in it. Use a polyquat 60.
5. I would not. The chlorine will consume the ascorbic acid making it work less effectively.
 
Wow, twenty years of dispensing bad advise, that's something not to be proud of. I wouldn't be asking any advise in that shop, but then I wouldn't be seaking advise in any shop.

 
Thanks for everyone's feedback and good input. As many of you probably know, the minute you walk into a pool store they ask you "what are you looking for?" And when I gave them my list I got asked why and what I was doing.

I think I'm all straightened out now. Well, just reassured of what I already thought.

Thanks
Dennis
 

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I have always found that, when I walk into a pool store, it is best to know exactly what you need and, if you can, to know the layout of the store as much as possible. The few times that I've gone in for chemicals that I could only get by asking at the counter, I walk up and I firmly and directly TELL the clerk exactly what I need. I never start the conversation with, "Do you have {fill in the blank}..." or "Can you tell me ...." as that is an invitation for them to give me advice. If they do ask me what I'm doing, I just tell them something along the lines of "My normal pool maintenance". In other words, I keep short and simple and I don't give them an opportunity to strike up a conversation. And if they ask me if I would like to have my water tested or they say something like you haven't been in here for a water test in a while, I tell them there's no need as I test my own water with exactly the same chemicals they have sitting behind them (most of the shops on my side of town have Taylor test setups). That usually keeps the clerk quiet and gets them to ring me up fast. I also usually target the ones that look like they're in high school or the U of A, as my advanced age gives off the appearance that I know what I'm talking about....:laughblue:
 
Hi D!
As to this one, here's the not-"alternate" fact:
5) I should just put in a tri puck while doing the absorbic acid treatment to keep some level of CL in the pool. (This one may hold some merrit as it will keep a low CL level in the pool)
Click to expand...

-- The FC from the puck and the AA will do battle. Which is not to say you cannot attempt to keep a low residual of chlorine (I have) when you treat with AA. It just means you will use more AA and possible still zero out the FC.

So in reality, here's the trick to successful AA treatment...once the stains have lifted and you've applied a PHOSPHONIC acid or sequester ( eg jacks or Metal magic) ...test and bring up FC incrementally but consistently every few hours as needed until the FC holds.

By this, I mean, do NOT fool around with low FC for a week. But also do not add so much chlorine in a single dose that you increase ph or get in the neighborhood of shock/slam range,which will consume the Sequestrant. Simply add a few ppm, check in two hours...dose agin, check in two hours, etc. until you're "holding" recc levels.
 
Thanks for all your advise.

So I waited until my CL was back down to 0 and put in 4lbs of absorbic acid. After almost a full day, really not much of a difference. Just some lightening in the spots where I scrubbed heavily. Per a friend's advise, I decided to throw in another 1/2 gallon of muriatic acid to further lower my alkalinity and he said to let it sit for 48hrs and see what it does. So my questions are:

1) was this okay for me to throw in more muriatic acid?

2) I do not have a heater to worry about the low pH. But is there something else that I have to worry about?

3) Should I be adding more absorbic acid if that doesn't do the trick?

Before I threw in the muriatic acid my PH was just under 7 and ~40ppm alkalinity (this was after the absorbic acid though).

Thanks
Dennis
 
Hi Dennis. What was your water temp at time of treatment, and had you originally confirmed metal staining through testing with vit c originally?

I ask because the thread started out with a series of questions as opposed to discussion of the problem ;)

With respect to water temp, I have seen the AA take longer to lift stains in cold water, in which case leaving it for an additional day may help.

In the case of copper staining, as opposed to iron staining the AA is not alway as effective, and sometimes what's called an underwater acid wash with an application tool and MA is more effective.

So can we back up and get a few mre details or pics re: your actual staining history?
Thanks!
 
Spoken like a Dilbert cartoon. "Hey boss, let's use greywater to make chlorine and save 20% on water." "That's stupid." "Oh."

Welcome to TFP! Good to have you here :) I can tell you know your stuff from here already, just by how you ask. Thanks for learning it. I nominate that poo $tore guy for Pinocchio; he needs a long hose or he'll suffocate in his own pile of _________.

You can post more pics by joining. It's modest, tax deductible, and a one-time cost. There's other perks as well. See "Become a Supporter" in my signature or the big button up top. No pressure; you'll get good advice either way.
 
Hi Swampwoman. Thanks for your feedback.

Water temp is 65F. Yes, confirmed with vit C. It significantly lightened the spots but not a full removal. It also looks almost identical to iron staining we get in our area from local well water (what I assume the previous owner filled the pool with). So, I figured it was worth a shot to try AA first. Right now I'm at 48hrs after AA treatment. I have been brushing regularly. Yesterday, I decided to add some MA to bring down my TA further. I'm currently at TA 20-30ppm. Now brushing seems to be lightening it more and there are clouds in the water when I brush. Since I don't have a heater, I assume it's okay for me to sit at this TA level for a few days? I was told to try not to bring it down much below this without having to worry about my pool surface. I am also monitoring my calcium to make sure that I don't have a significant breakdown of my pool surface. Currently I'm at 350ppm.

Please let me know what you guys think and if I made any mistakes along the way.

Thanks
 
I would say that adding MA would cause a pH *trough* rather than a spike. He certainly does have his facts confused, huh?

Remember that he's in the business of selling you things. So of course he's gonna say silly stuff like that....

Yippee :flower:
 
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